Buying a new truck
CoolRabbit
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2009-03-19 10:39 AM (#101742)
Subject: Buying a new truck



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Posts: 9

Location: Ohio
I am buying anew truck, upgrading what I have now.

Currently I have a Ford F-250 with a 351 gas engine. I pull a 3H aluminum gooseneck trailer with LQs, fully loaded I estimate it to weight at least $10,000 pounds. I feel like my F-250 just does not have the pulling power I really need. I want to upgrade to a 1 ton truck, not a dually, and staying with gas. Can I get recommendations as to engine size (the V8 or V10???) and axle rations needed for my setup? My truck will generally only be used to haul the trailer, not for everyday driving. The dealerships I spoke to really have no clue what I need for my trailer, so I am getting fed a lot of misinformation. Any recommendations????
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acdasb
Reg. Apr 2007
Posted 2009-03-19 10:46 AM (#101744 - in reply to #101742)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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Why don't you want to go with a diesel? If you feel your current truck doesn't have the power to pull your trailer properly, only upgrading the suspension to a 1 ton truck won't give you the pulling power you're looking for. You need more torque. You will never have a problem pulling your trailer anywhere with a diesel engine.

Edited by acdasb 2009-03-19 10:55 AM
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CoolRabbit
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2009-03-19 11:03 AM (#101745 - in reply to #101742)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck



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Location: Ohio
Diesel is really hard to find at the gas stations around here. The added cost of the engine and the added repair costs doesn't make it worthwhile to me to get one since it is not being driven a lot. My current truck is 14 years old and only has 75k miles. Mainly it is because it is so hard to find diesel pumps around here, and the few that exist are impossible to get to with a trailer attached.
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chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2009-03-19 11:07 AM (#101746 - in reply to #101742)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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If you want to stay with a gas engine, I wouldnt even consier the V8.  A 'newish' V10 with a 4.30 rear is the way to go.  It will run right beside the diesel as witnessed here;

http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/2007/shootout/hdshootout4mpg.html

Back when I was in the truck market I looked at a F350 V10 real hard, but this Duramax was too good a deal to pass up.  Your situation is similar to mine.  Using the truck only for hauling, I will never recoup the extra $$ I paid for the diesel.  Not to mention for almost two years diesel fuel cost so much more that my dollar per mile was no better than the guys hauling with gas engines.

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CoolRabbit
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2009-03-19 11:13 AM (#101747 - in reply to #101742)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck



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Location: Ohio
Thank you! That information is helpful. From that link you provided, it looks like the V10 and the diesel are similar in performance. Would it be OK to go with a 3.73 axle ratio, or is that not good enough?
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retento
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2009-03-19 11:25 AM (#101748 - in reply to #101742)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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Quote Chad.... If you want to stay with a gas engine, I wouldnt even consier the V8.  A 'newish' V10 with a 4.30 rear is the way to go.

I pull with a 3500 Chevrolet 8.1 with the Allison and 4.10 gears... My next truck, if I stay with a gas engine will have to be the Ford V10, automatic with 4.30's. The GM 8.1 is no longer offered in the 2500 and 3500's and the detuned/derated 6.0 gasser, even with a 6 speed auto, ain't going to do much with 15000#.

 I bet a newer/late model/3 valve, Ford V10, with twice the power of what you got now, will be better on fuel than that 5.8/351 you're pulling with now.

 

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chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2009-03-19 11:32 AM (#101749 - in reply to #101747)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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Originally written by CoolRabbit on 2009-03-19 11:13 AM

Thank you! That information is helpful. From that link you provided, it looks like the V10 and the diesel are similar in performance. Would it be OK to go with a 3.73 axle ratio, or is that not good enough?

No the 3.73 would not be as powerful, and I wound not consider it.  The 4.30 is how the V10 can keep up with the diesel.  Those engines have similar horsepower but the V10 is down on torque.  However torque can be multiplied through the gears and essentially you will have the same power at the wheels/ground. 

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gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2009-03-19 11:55 AM (#101750 - in reply to #101742)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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Other options you might want to consider are: trailer towing package, camper package, four wheel drive, limited slip differential, spray in bed liner, and a factory installed spare tire.

The V-10 will use more gas than a diesel, but with a difference in cost of $6300, you can buy quite a bit of gas. Also diesel fuel is more expensive than gas, so it's improbable that you would recoup the diesel engine option cost by any fuel savings.

Gard

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CoolRabbit
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2009-03-19 12:02 PM (#101751 - in reply to #101750)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck



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Location: Ohio
Originally written by gard on 2009-03-19 12:55 PM

Other options you might want to consider are: trailer towing package, camper package, four wheel drive, limited slip differential, spray in bed liner, and a factory installed spare tire.

The V-10 will use more gas than a diesel, but with a difference in cost of $6300, you can buy quite a bit of gas. Also diesel fuel is more expensive than gas, so it's improbable that you would recoup the diesel engine option cost by any fuel savings.

Gard



What is a limited slip differential?

What usually comes in a camper package vs. a trailer towing package?
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gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2009-03-19 2:46 PM (#101764 - in reply to #101751)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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A camper package includes heavier front and rear springs, a sway bar and  overload springs with heavier shocks.

A towing package includes additional capacity fluid coolers, again heavier rear springs, trailer plug wiring and a frame mounted receiver hitch. Some packages include the brake controller. 

A Limited Slip Differential applies torque to both wheels, regardless of the road conditions. Without it, you could have one wheel on bare concrete, and the other on ice, and the truck would not move. It's a very handy option to have.

Gard

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CoolRabbit
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2009-03-19 3:31 PM (#101767 - in reply to #101742)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck



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Location: Ohio
Thank you so much! Everyone has been very helpful!
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Gone
Reg. May 2005
Posted 2009-03-19 8:02 PM (#101779 - in reply to #101742)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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What about the tranny?....Doesn't it play a part?

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chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2009-03-19 8:25 PM (#101782 - in reply to #101779)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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Originally written by Gone on 2009-03-19 8:02 PM

What about the tranny?....Doesn't it play a part?

 

What about it?  A part in what?
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barrelhorses
Reg. Feb 2009
Posted 2009-03-19 8:26 PM (#101783 - in reply to #101742)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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I had a 2000 F250 diesel, a 2005 F350 diesel and now own a 2008 F350 V10.  There is no question that if you are pulling heavy and pulling often, the diesel is the better choice.  But in my case, I am not pulling the LQ too far or too often.  So far I am really happy with the V10, though I've only had it hooked to the LQ once.  It handled it fine for that short little trip.  I can say for sure, though, that the V10 has absolutely no problems pulling my GN stock trailer with two horses (6500 lbs. more or less).

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genebob
Reg. Nov 2007
Posted 2009-03-20 11:30 AM (#101816 - in reply to #101742)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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I'm in a similar situation as you CoolRabbit. My F350 is used primarily as my hauler, but is also my proverbial Sunday go to church vehicle. It's an 01' V-10 with 76,000 miles on it. We now pull a 10,000# trailer and have the 3.73 rear end and have had no problems keeping up with any one.

All my friends also said to buy a diesel when I ordered this one, but when I asked them to pay the interest on the extra $6,000 none of them volunteered. I am kind of looking for another every day driver, but also to be a hauler if I want. Really would like the Duramax but I make way to many one mile trips. It would never get the chance to warm up and lubricate itself properly.

Definitly want 4WD, Towing package, and limited slip

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CoolRabbit
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2009-03-20 11:38 AM (#101817 - in reply to #101742)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck



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Posts: 9

Location: Ohio
Thanks genebob. That was kind of my thought also. I realize the diesel is better for hauling and longevity, but at my rate of hauling it would be over 20 years before I would actually get my money's worth out of the extra cost of a diesel engine. I am still up in the air about the axle, since I have heard both sides and no one agrees. On one hand I like the idea of more pulling power, on the other hand I like the idea of less RPMs and better gas mileage. I am torn...
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chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2009-03-20 12:54 PM (#101821 - in reply to #101817)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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Fuel mileage claims tend to be exaggerated.  The difference between the 4.30 and 3.73 would likely be less than 2 mpg empty and the 4.30 'could' get better mpg under a load.  

It will be nearly impossible to know exactly what mpg either rear end would get you in your exact situation.  And youre right, no one will agree; power or "economy".......personally I'll take power, Ive already got a car.  Only you can answer what mpg/economy is worth to you.

I use my truck only for hauling, I can save 1.3 mpg just by slowing from 65 mph to 55 mph while towing.  But after doing the math; hauling 10,000 miles a year that 1.3 mpg would save about $140 a year.  Quite literally not "worth my time".

I guess you could always split the difference and look for a 4.10...........

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CoolRabbit
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2009-03-20 1:22 PM (#101823 - in reply to #101742)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck



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Location: Ohio
You're right. If I did the math (not my strong suit LOL!) I'd probably be better off with the stronger duty axle. It would be rare that I would even drive it without the trailer anyways, so my main consideration needs to be hauling capabilities.
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gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2009-03-20 3:58 PM (#101831 - in reply to #101823)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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Originally written by CoolRabbit on 2009-03-20 1:22 PM

 I'd probably be better off with the stronger duty axle. consideration needs to be hauling capabilities.

The ratio of the axle doesn't determine it's strength. The same axle with different ratios, will have the same weight carrying capabilities. The various suspension packages, towing, camper etc., will vary the weight carrying capabilities of differently optioned trucks.

The maximum torque values for the V-10 gas motor occur at a relatively high RPM when compared to a diesel. (3200 RPM gas- 2000 RPM diesel) By using a differential of a higher ratio, the 4.30, the engine will be running closer to its HP and torque peaks, rather than lugging at lower revolutions. This will increase its efficiency, albeit at the cost of a little extra fuel when you're running empty.

Gard

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barrelhorses
Reg. Feb 2009
Posted 2009-03-22 8:54 PM (#101911 - in reply to #101783)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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Originally written by barrelhorses on 2009-03-19 9:26 PM

I had a 2000 F250 diesel, a 2005 F350 diesel and now own a 2008 F350 V10.  There is no question that if you are pulling heavy and pulling often, the diesel is the better choice.  But in my case, I am not pulling the LQ too far or too often.  So far I am really happy with the V10, though I've only had it hooked to the LQ once.  It handled it fine for that short little trip.  I can say for sure, though, that the V10 has absolutely no problems pulling my GN stock trailer with two horses (6500 lbs. more or less).

 

I pulled the LQ about 250 miles roundtrip to a horse sale this weekend.  I did not have any horses in it though (I was smart enough not to buy any new ones....this time anyhow).  So the trailer probably weighed somewhere between 10K and 11K.  Anyhow, this was the first decent test of the V10 engine.  I averaged about 8 MPG whereas I used to get about 11 with the 6.0 diesel.  I thought the truck did a fine job of pulling the trailer, even up some pretty decent hills between Cincinnati and Jackson, OH on Route 32.  I was going at least 60 MPH at the top of each hill.  I wasn't able to do much better with the diesels I had.  Driving the gasser requires a different driving style though.  You can't be affraid to push the skinny pedal. 

Edited to add: My truck has the 4.10 rear end.  Probably should have gone with the 4.30, but the 4.10 did fine.   



Edited by barrelhorses 2009-03-22 8:58 PM
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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2009-03-23 7:40 AM (#101926 - in reply to #101742)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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How big of a LQ? I doubt a three horse aluminum weighs 10k with no horses if its a 8 foot LQ.My HART which is a composite trailer which is heavier then aluminum weighs about 8k with generator,hyd/electric jack etc.front twin propane tanks etc.You need to weigh your trailer on some scales.I was told by a HART engineer/manager to take the basic trailer weight and for every foot of LQ to add 300lbs.He said that is what it usually figures out to on any LQ trailer.The reason I say what I have is that I have a friend with a Ford 351 5 speed farm truck(early 90s) and it would NOT pull a empty 4 horse aluminum small dressing room with out seriously straining the truck.In fact he did it ONCE and said not again.Just not enough truck.My Hart with NO LQ shipping weight was in the 5500 lb range is what HART told me.Add 2400 for LQ/fliuds and there you go.7900lbs. My Hart is for sale. www.signalfireranch.com

Edited by hounddog 2009-03-23 7:49 AM
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PaulChristenson
Reg. Jan 2007
Posted 2009-03-23 11:44 AM (#101944 - in reply to #101742)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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Originally written by CoolRabbit on 2009-03-19 11:39 AM

I am buying anew truck, upgrading what I have now.Currently I have a Ford F-250 with a 351 gas engine. I pull a 3H aluminum gooseneck trailer with LQs, fully loaded I estimate it to weight at least $10,000 pounds. I feel like my F-250 just does not have the pulling power I really need. I want to upgrade to a 1 ton truck, not a dually, and staying with gas. Can I get recommendations as to engine size (the V8 or V10???) and axle rations needed for my setup? My truck will generally only be used to haul the trailer, not for everyday driving. The dealerships I spoke to really have no clue what I need for my trailer, so I am getting fed a lot of misinformation. Any recommendations????
http://www.coughlinshadow.com/trucks-for-sale.html
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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2009-03-23 1:51 PM (#101949 - in reply to #101944)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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Link dosen't work.
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reeree3333
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2009-03-23 5:25 PM (#101966 - in reply to #101742)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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"Hounddog, why don't you pay for an ad on here? You are no different than the dealers that try to use this board free to sell."
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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2009-03-23 8:50 PM (#101980 - in reply to #101742)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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Got a microscope I need to sell also. Actually I'm working my way to writing a ad and seriously try to sell my Hart trailer.It will be on E/bay also.Just have not taken the time to do so.Its on the list.

Edited by hounddog 2009-03-23 8:55 PM
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rimrockranch
Reg. Jan 2008
Posted 2009-03-23 11:18 PM (#101988 - in reply to #101742)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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Just went through the fun of shopping for trucks six months ago. Swore I'd never have another diesel - we owned a 93 non-PS Ford 350 diesel that we had lots of problems with;and still have a 95 Chevy K2500 gas.  Both more than adequately pulled our 2H Cherokee GN and Trail-et 2H BP. Our trucks are not daily drivers, we use them to pull trailers, haul hay, get feed, go to Lowe's -- you know the drill. I couldn't see the sense in paying more for the engine and fuel, and never put enough miles on the truck to make the payback on a diesel.

We drove an F250 V10, Dodge diesel and a Chevy gas and diesel. I was ready to tell the dealer get the Chevy gasser but reconsidered and bought the diesel instead. Why? Because when I'm hauling the trailer, I love the fact that in anticipation of a stop ahead I can take my foot off the pedal and the engine starts slowing the truck down. A gas engine just doesn't compare.

Yes, it's a bit of a hassle to find the diesel pumps, especially when on the road and with the new low sulphur diesel which not every fueling station has. But I know the best stations locally where I can pull in easily and I know where to get diesel between home and frequest trail destinations. It just takes a little bit of planning.

It's been 3600 miles and I'm really happy that I bought the diesel truck.

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barrelhorses
Reg. Feb 2009
Posted 2009-03-24 5:06 AM (#101994 - in reply to #101926)
Subject: RE: Buying a new truck


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Originally written by hounddog on 2009-03-23 8:40 AM

How big of a LQ? I doubt a three horse aluminum weighs 10k with no horses if its a 8 foot LQ.My HART which is a composite trailer which is heavier then aluminum weighs about 8k with generator,hyd/electric jack etc.front twin propane tanks etc.You need to weigh your trailer on some scales.I was told by a HART engineer/manager to take the basic trailer weight and for every foot of LQ to add 300lbs.He said that is what it usually figures out to on any LQ trailer.The reason I say what I have is that I have a friend with a Ford 351 5 speed farm truck(early 90s) and it would NOT pull a empty 4 horse aluminum small dressing room with out seriously straining the truck.In fact he did it ONCE and said not again.Just not enough truck.My Hart with NO LQ shipping weight was in the 5500 lb range is what HART told me.Add 2400 for LQ/fliuds and there you go.7900lbs. My Hart is for sale. http://www.signalfireranch.com/

 

Hounddog, you're right.  I need to weigh my trailer to get an exact weight.  It is an 8' wide 8' SW LQ and is a 4 Horse. I can tell you this much.  The dealer said it weighed about 9500 pounds before I added the hydraulic jack, AC and a few other options.  The GVWR for the trailer is 18,000#.  I am pretty confident that the trailer would scale at least 10K as it was rolling this weekend. 

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