I'm wondering what people pack as a sidearm when trailriding in some areas, and what type of holster they like to use.

I carry Bear spray, but I also now, carry a Smith&Wesson 38 special in an El Paso Saddlery ,Threepersons crossdraw holster. This will be our first season packing a sidearm ,and we both have been getting a lot of seat time at the range.

We have been doing some shooting on horseback in preperation for next spring,Starting on the ground first we acclimated them to the gunshots , which really didn't take much time.We now are sticking to the wooded trails near the farm,target shooting in saddle, and I'm suprised at how well the boys do! It's good to know they won't dump us if we came to using the pistol.

I'm just curious about what other folks have to say.

I throw the Glock .40 in the saddlebag.  I carry it for putting a horse down, or possible problems of the 'two legged' type. 

If I was concerned about bears (you mentioned bear spray), I dont think a .38 would be enough gun to make me feel better.

Depends what country I'm in.  Bear country I carry a Tarus Titanium 41 mag.  It only weighs 24oz and I just use a codura belt holster. I hope I never have to actually shoot a bear with it. But it makes one heck of BANG.  So loud it is very painfull to my ears. I never shoot that gun with hearing protection. Now if threatened by a bear or cat, I wouldn't worry about the hearing protection. Several of my friends fancy themselves and carry 454 Casull. I'll let them shoot the bear if we really ever have to shoot one.

Other times I carry a Browning Hi-Power in 9mm.  It's fun to plink with.  Again it makes a Bang if I need to scare something off. But those small bullets from a 9mm won't do much if really threaten by mean critter. But they will put a horse down.

And while I've never had to shoot a horse, I've have been with friends when we had to put horses down in the back country. When you are 2-3 hours ride into the wilderness, and another 2-3 hours drive after you get back in your truck to find a vet. You have got to face it, that no help is coming if a horse goes down. You have to take care of it. It's not easy to shoot a horse that has been your companion in the head. But it's real hard to have to cut his throat.

During hunting season.  I pack a rifle. I've often got off the horse and stepped a few feet in front of the horse before pulling the trigger. I would never expose my horses ears to that kind of muzzle blast.

I've never had a horse in such a way on the trail that I would put him down, but I expect it could happen. All the bears I've crossed upon here in Oregon are Black bears, and they have always been most interested in putting distance between us ,even the mommas with cubs. The cougars though,hang around,we've had the experience of it,and I could kill one with my 38 special. My wife had to use her bear spray on an agressive dog once. It works way better than the people spray you buy at K mart. I expect it's a bit stronger.

 I respect that you avoid exposing your horses ears to muzzle blast.I try not to shoot over my boys head, the 38 is not that noisy but I always now choose my shots  off angle when target shooting on his back. I can't say what that shot will be in the heat of the moment, He seems OK with where ever I shoot lately. The big test will be when he's in an area he's not familiar with and maybe a bit more edgy.  

Cougars are curious, but it doesn't take much to shoo them away.  Most the time, they just want to sneek up and get a closer look. Once they realize you know they are there, they leave.

And most black bears are more of problem when they raid camp than when you stumble across them on the trail.  Even the grizzly sow and two cubs we came across while riding in Yellowstone, wanted nothing to do with us and since we gave the plenty of room to escape, they  promptly took the opportunity.

Read the label. Bear Spray is usually 10% active ingrediant.  Where human spray is 3.5 - 5%   So yes Pepper Bear Spray is stronger than bad guy spray. But the ingrediants are also specially blended to get optimum results in the bears nose and eyes.

The group I ride with had one horse break a leg in Yellowstone Park. Another horse got pushed off a narrow ledge trail on the way into Robbers Roost in Southern Utah by a pack horse that crowded up alongside and bumped the saddle horse off a 40 foot cliff. It broke it's neck in the fall. The rider bailed off just as the horse went over the edge. A 3rd horse stumbled and went down. Never got back up was dead in about 15 minutes. Talked to vet when we got home and they speculated that it's aorta burst. Probably from being dehydrated and blood thicking increasing the horses blood pressure. We were in a group of 15-16 riders, that horse got excited being around a new group of horses. He just never settled down. When we would stop and drink, he was more worried about the other horses than in tanking down water.  5-6 hours into the ride it caught up with him.

So you hope it never happens to one of your horses. If you spend enough time in rough country, the odds will eventually catch you. Most of these places would take several hours to just get out of the back country and go find a vet, let alone get him get him back to the horse that was down. IF they would they even consider coming.

Do you really have enough facts to feel that strongly about it? Maybe the owner didnt know the horse was an idiot?

If I rode that far then found out the horse was too stupid to drink, died, and I had to walk back 5 hours I would be pretty mad..........at the horse.

Like I said, we dont really dont really have any facts.

Thanks for the tip on the hearing protection. I 'll check it out.

Here in the mid-atlantic region we do have our share of snakes and that is usually the reason for carrying a sidearm.  I have always carried a Taurus snub-nose 38 5-shot.  I have it loaded with 3 "snake shot" rounds and 2 wad-cutters.  That's been the best combination for me since I've been trail riding in this region.  We have our share of Eastern Diamondback Rattlers and once they get some age and length on them, they can get pretty bold.  I've even seen mature black snakes take a posture that I interpreted as aggressive.  I've seen a black snake rare up with a 1/3 of it's body in the air and flare it's neck like a cobra.  He got shot.

I also carry pepper spray and it works really well for a lot of uses.  Troublesome dogs and so on.  Be very careful with pepper spray if you not experienced with it.  You can accidentally spray yourself and your horse unintentionally from the wind blowing the wrong way.  Next time you want to see a "train wreck" stick close, but not too close to someone with pepper spray that is not experienced or practiced with it.  You can watch a horse go through some real exciting equine gymnastics.

I usually keep the 45 ACP in the trailer on weekends in case there is a need for humanely dispatching an injured horse.  Witnessed a bad situation get a lot worse one time.  Car hit a horse, broke it's leg and local law enforcement would not put the horse down after the owner begged them to.  Wouldn't let anyone use their gun to do it either.  I walked up to one deputy and told him he was cold, cruel, heartless bastard.  I had to sit in the back of his cruiser until a shift supervisor showed up and let me out.  The owner of the injured horse was forced to wait for 2 hours until a vet showed up. 

Since I don't have to worry about bears, even though we have them, black bears that is.  They are usually not a threat and black bears are extremely shy creatures so I don't worry about carrying enough fire power to take care of one. 

deranger

Wait a minute.  You are jumping to far fetch conclusions.

3 horses over a 20 year period.   Never more than one any given year. Never on the same trailride or even on the same trail.

All horse were well conditions. This was not a matter that the horse was pasture potato.  It had been ridden several days a week by an experienced horse person. It had gone on long rides prior to places like Bryce Canyon and other desert rides. I used to do lots of CTR and still go clear and mark trails for endurance rides.  Our horses get a LOT of trail use.

It was a 9 year Appendix Quarter horse gelding. It did not show any other signs prior to going down.  This was not a matter that we rode 10 hour at canter and never offered a rest.  It was just a nice trail ride in April walking with occassional trots. Not too hot, in fact if I remember right we all had coats on so it was on the cool side.  The horse performed fine until the point when it stumbed. The rider got off and was checking the horse when it dropped. No autopsy was done. We were in no mans land. No chance of getting a vet out to look at the horse. Talking with the vet at home after the trip. his first impression was that the aorta burst in order for the horse to go from being rode to being dead that fast. What ever the cause of death. It happened very quickly.  Some people/creatures are just susceptible to certain conditions. So what condition causes an aorta to burst. We speculate that his blood pressure got elevated.  We know the horse was a little hyper that ride. The fellow riding that horse is a very respected horse trainer, he did a great job of asking for gives and keeping the horse busy and under control. Hind site, we kind felt that horse didn't drink as well as the other horses in the group.  But you  know what, some morning my geldings won't drink until we are 4-5 hours into a trail ride.  I offer it to them, But sometimes they just don't drink.  Nobody knows for sure what triggered this. Would the same thing have happened next week when he was roping calves. When the horse was asked to run down a calf. Very possibly. We don't know. Why do I open the paper and see in the Obits somebody died of a heart attack at 50 and somebody at 100 years of age.  Some people genetically are at risk. Some people manage the risk better than others.

I ride with this fellow and other friends a lot. We ride in some of the most rough and scenic country around. In 20 years this is the only horse that has had a stress problem. Not one case of Colic, Not one horse ever tied up. I think we know how to take care of our horses. So can't it just be that we had a horse that was predisposed to a certain condition and on this particular ride, that condition was achieved. Don't go jumping to conclusion that somebody needs to be shot for neglect!

We all know that horses are magnets for problems.  I threw a  coming 3 year old in a friends pasture for the winter. My friend keeps 6 horses and 50 cows in that field every winter. The day before I was to retrieve that colt he stepped on a nail or some other object that penetrated his frog. He abcessed and I ended up doctoring him for a couple months when I wanted to start him.  Why did that colt step on something on that day?  Why not one of the other 6 horses or 50 cows? Why the day before I wanted to start working him instead of the day I delivered him. Things just happen with horses.  I led  a group down through the Maze in the Black Canyon. Very narrow twisty trail.  All the horses did fine. But one mare banged her leg on a sharp rock and opened up a cut over his joint.  Had to go in and get stitches and spend money making sure she didn't get infection into that joint. Why her? 6 other horses went down that trail and never got cut. We just don't always know why our horses have certain things happen to them.

You're right, "sounds relatively simplistic" from a very simplistic point of view..........yours.  Too many assumptions, not enough good information, no facts, no history on the horse and you made a "hard line decision" based on minimal info.  Try asking some questions before jumping to conclusions. 

deranger

Oka-here's your conclusions. Quote "horse stumbled and went down. Never got back up. Was dead in about 15 minutes. ---vet speculated ---aorta burst. Probably from being DEHYDRATED and BLOOD THICK(EN)ING increasing the horse's BLOOD PRESSURE. When we would stop and drink he was more worried about--other horses than in tanking down water.  5 to 6 hours in the ride it caught up with him."  Unquote

Sounds like a typical case of the horse being overridden for his condition or lack thereof to me.  What was the horse's heart rate?  What about anal tone?  What about gum discoloration. All tell-tale signs of a metabolic distrss situation in the making. And the BIG one, not drinking water. You can make all of the excuses you want, but the signs had to be all in place or otherwise the horse would have been hit by a train in his stall and died. But your honor, I didn't know the gun was loaded!  Now flame me all you want.

Youre still monday morning quarterbacking, sometimes $hit happens....even after reading the post with the additional facts it sounds like no one will ever know what actually happened to the horse.

Secondly, not drinking may or may not be a/the problem. I had an older horse that thought he was a camel. Used to drive the ladies we rode with crazy....he would be standing there covered in sweat and would NOT drink. Not on the trail, not at the trailer, and was in no hurry to get to the water trough when we got home. Come to think of it I only saw that horse drink a few times the whole time I had him. I could get him to drink a little by forcing salt, but I eventually quit fighting him.......he was 25 at the time. I always thought he was an idiot, and I would not have ridden him in the situations Painted horse rides in......but he made it all those years without my help, maybe he knew something I didnt?

Maybe the horse didn't know the owner was an idiot, either.

Oh, Heck! why don't we get draft horses so we can all carry a 44mag, a .357mag, a mini-14, a 30/30, and a 50 caliber just for good measure... then... if you don't feel secure... pull a gatlin gun behind you. howaboutit?

We just pack a 44mag and a 38... and ride fast horses.

Well now, that is interesting.

.41 mag. S&W in belt holster.

Marlin 45-70 lever action rifle in scabbard.

Never had to use 'em but sure do make me feel better.

If we could get back to guns for a minute, I would like to share some info a new gun that I've been reading about and will probably purchase one in the near future.  I own a couple of Taurus hand guns and really like them a lot.  They compare well to S&W, Remington and Colt to mention some other guns that I own and have owned.  Taurus is a well made gun, good quality and I've always liked them since the first one I purchased over 20 years ago.  The new one is called a "Taurus Judge" and it comes in a stainless steel and a light weight version.  The nifty thing about this jewel is it is capable of firing two different types of rounds.  It can a .45 caliber bullet as well as .410 gauge shotgun shell.  The MSRP on this gun around $550.00 right now and I don't expect it to get any higher.  Taurus does a good job of marketing their product and pricing is pretty consistant from what I've seen in the past.  If you decide to add one of these little beauties to your inventory of "personal protection" tools, you won't be disappointed.

Happy trails,

deranger

I'll have to look at the Tarus Judge, Most of the guns I've seen that shoot both 45 & 410 have such short barrels as to not be very accurate.  I like the ability to shoot a 410 at grouse along the way. but have the protection of heavy pistol slug if needed.  Most guns that shoot both a 410 and 45 shoot a 2 1/2" 410 shell. Which you can get loaded with three 000 buckshot.  You wouldn't have to be a very good shot with that.

Carry the gun on your person. You may not be sitting ont he horse when you need it.

There are too many variables for anyone, even a gun expert, to come up with the perfect ladies gun on this thread.  I highly recommend going to a reputable shooting range and giving A LOT of handguns a little test drive to see what you like.  If I were going to make a "blind" suggestion, it would be my favorite standby and that's a Taurus, snub-nose .38 with a 2 1/2" barrel.  As I said in an earlier post, I load the 5 chambers with 2 or 3 rounds of snake shot and 2 or 3 rounds of "wad cutters" for versatility.  For a lady, I recommend she carry a double action revolver in 5 shot capacity and definitely not a semi-auto.  Semi-auto is too complicated, too cumbersom and too troublesome unless you are a very experienced shooter and can clear a jam quickly as most shooters know, semi's are and can be prone to jams at the worst possible moment.  Plus they are a lot heavier to carry.  I keep coming back to Taurus as a good possible choice for all the reasons I posted earlier. 

A lot also depends on the terrain, the type of protection you need and what you are protecting yourself from?  An opinion was offered earlier about barrel length and I still contend that a snub-nose is the most ideal for personal protection and carry on your person.  You are not entering into the bad lands and cruising around for a gun fight where you have to be accurate at long distances.  If you are going to use your gun for personal protection it will always be within the distance you can throw a rock and hit them as well.  I've carried a gun on horse back or back packing for over 25 years and have fired it in self defence less than a dozen times.  Mostly at poisonous snakes, bad dogs or an overly aggressive racoon in the daytime.  The only thing I've actually killed is a few poisonous snakes.  I do keep a .45 ACP in the horse trailer.

Happy trails,

deranger

Rockin, Thanks for the input and all of us appreciate good info and what you shared was very useful.  It's nice to know we have a ret. LEO here with us to share insights from a different point of view.

deranger

Good for you!!! And your husband!!!  I know it will be a good choice for you and remember that grip selection can change "the feel" of a gun more than anything.  I really like Pacmar (sp) grips and have upgraded to them on at least 3 of my handguns. 

Caution: DO NOT PUT 3" .410 shells in your new Judge.  They will fit, but you will probably damage the gun if you fire a 3" shell.  There's no place for the crimping that seals the end of the shell to expand to when the gun is fired.  So you wind up "necking the barrel/chamber down" by reducing the barrel/chamber diameter because the crimping is taking up space.  Just make SURE you are using only 2-1/2" .410 shells and you'll have a great gun to enjoy for many years.

deranger

The Taurus website shows that they sell both a 2 3/4" and a 3" version of the .410

So it would depend on which gun you purchased if you can shoot the 3" shells.

Thanks painted horse, I only had an article published quite a while back and hadn't picked anything up to read recently about the Taurus Judge.  The article bodly stated the caution about shooting 3" shells.  I wonder if they had requests for the 3" or if something else was causing the upgrade. 

Thanks again for the clairification.  It's always nice to have ALL the facts, I apologize for not being completely up to date on the Judge.  I still plan on buying one and now that I know it's available in 3" that might be a consideration?

deranger

P.S.- I went back to my reference and it was published in January, 2009.  So I reread what I had read and realized that the editor had said, "The newest Judge revolver is one with an extra-length cylinder that accepts the loner 3" .410-bore shotshells.  I didn't have the long-barreled (6.5") field revolver."  I had only seen first hand in a gun shop the earlier version of the Judge and should have done a better job reading the article in AMERICAN RIFLEMAN.

No critism intended.  As often as this stuff changes, It's hard to keep up.  the gun my friend has only shoots the shorter .410 shells.

So when I saw it on Taurus's website, I took note.  I have a .410 long gun around the trailer that uses the 3", and didn't want to have to keep both types of shells.

After thinking about it for a while, I think I'm going to stick with my original thoughts and buy the shorter Judge.  I don't have good wrists any more and if my wife decides to shoot it, I think the 2.75" .410 will be enough to get the job done on the trail.  I've always got the .45 ACP in the trailer in case I need a little more fire power.

deranger