Hi,

I have a friend who is a parelli person.  I'm curious if anyone from the Forum is familiar with this method.  I'm hoping someone can help me understand whether my friend is following the methods prescribed or if she has used the methods to allow her horse to take advantage of her.  I've witnessed her on several occasions load her horse in the trailer.  She used to (her horse loads much better now) spend around 45 minutes to load her horse.  She would stand in the trailer with the rope and wait until her horse decided to get in...no pressure what so ever.  The rope would be completely slack.  Her horse seemed really bored the whole time and I believe he's finally loading better because he doesn't want to stand half in and half out of the trailer for 45 minutes anymore.  Does Parelli not encourage the owner to have any dominance over the horse?

I recently went riding with my friend and we came to a wooden bridge.  I was riding a 2 year old, so I allowed her to go ahead.  Well, after her horse (who's 7) refused, she immediately got off.  She doesn't believe in using spurs or whipping her horse to get him motivated to go forward.  She proceeded to work with the horse for 50 minutes.  I starred in silence the whole time.  She stood on the bridge and waited.  Her horse stood off the bridge and looked extremely bored.  Every once in while he would put foot on the bridge and then back off.  She always allowed him to back up and off again.  There was never any pressure and it seemed to me that the horse was the one really in charge.  The horse finally walked across the bridge, but only after wasting my time for 50 minutes.  I'm certain the horse would have walked over the bridge within the first 5 minutes if she would have actually lead him across...meaning she took control of the horse and asked him in an assertive way to obey.  He was never asked.  He was given the opportunity to decide on his own. 

I've witness this horse on numerous occasions bite other horses, kick other horses, paw at his owner (in fact the very next day after our trail ride he pawed my friend in the arm).  Not once when I witnessed any of this behavior has she ever really punished him in a way that equals the crime.  He's got terrible manners and I believe he's getting away with all of this because his owner, my friend has taken the parelli method a little too far.  I just can’t believe someone would endorse allowing the horse to be the “top-dog”.  Thoughts from the group? Thanks, Natalee

Yup. and your friend will be loyal, loyal, loyal to the "Carrot Stick" methods, so trying to convince her otherwise will be wasting your time.

Sounds like many kids we all know. right?

On another board we chatter about how so many Parelli-ites spend hours everyday with their horses but they never ride them. The fact that your friend is actually riding the horse is a good sign. 

I'm not impressed at all about the results that most people get using Parelli methods and I'm also not impressed with their disregard for other people and horses.

On the other hand,I have taken two of my horses through the Level I Games and I found that it greatly improved their respect for me.And I DO ride my horses.

BTW,Saddlebredlover,are you by any chance the same gal that posted a lot on YouTube not long ago?

Not meaning to insult you,but,I and a former trainer had several arguments with someone with your user name over whether or not Saddlebreds were trained with artificial methods such as pads,ect.

Just watching your friend attempt to train an ill-tempered horse using Parelli methods that isn't working for her is really no reason to judge the entire Parelli training program.She's not a professional trainer,and,I've been to 3 of their seminars,also have attended John Lyons,and Monty Roberts.None of these trainers endorse allowing a horse to behave in the manner you have described,i.e.,pawing at her arm,I can assure you.She just hasn't gotten her bluff in on him yet,and he hasn't "got it" yet that she's the one in charge,because,she's not made it clear enough.

Ask Pat Parelli yourself in an email on his website,or any of his trainers,if they endorse or allow a horse to use aggression freely as part of their training program,and you'll get your answer.

crowely ridge girl... I do want you to know that I also know of a few people that are excellent graduates from Parelli experiences; but I have seen more that are not - in particular those who have their first or even 2nd horse and think they can train it themselves.

As you have attended other clinicians, I'm sure you will agree that it takes sorting out of what you learn to make a good horse person that is capable of teaching/training their own horses.

I should not have lumped all "Parelli-ites" into one stereotypical jumble.

Crowleysridgegirl,

No, I am not the person that posted stuff on YouTube.  Many many years ago I did professinally train saddlebreds and yes, we did use artificial methods to get them to do what they do (never soaring, though, that's Tennessee Walking Horses)...I'm not poud of what I've done to some horses, but I don't do that anymore.  I am literally a saddlebred lover, because I own a 19 year old retired fine harness horse, but also have a barn full of QH's.  I have changed my ways and work hard to be more natural with my babies.

My post wasn't to bash the Parelli Method.  I'm sure it works as does other training methods.  What I want to know is if anyone (who studies under parelli) agrees with this process of waiting until the horse decides to load in a trailer, cross a bridge, cross a creek etc.  I told my friend after the 50 minute training experiment was over, that I totally disagreed with her training and she assured me that her "instructor" would be so proud of her.  Come on...please tell me this can't be so?  From my point of view, her horse has bad manners...the kicking, biting and pawing because in situations like the bridge crossing and trailerload epidsodes she never shows any dominance over her horse.  He's always in charge and is complete spoiled.

Gabz - you're also right about parelli people not riding...My neighbor only just started riding her horse after I moved in next door.  She hadn't ridden him for at least 2 years!

Can anyone else chime in on whether this is extreme or not?

I personally think some folks take it a little too far.  After all this is a 1200 lb. animal who could harm me if it does not respect me.  I have seen Parelli; watch Clinton & Chris Cox on TV when I have the chance.  I like little things about all the different trainers, but I believe some folks become so involved and passionate with one way that they can not accept that their way  not the absolute best.   I also know people who  have quit riding their horses to "concentrate" on groundwork.  OK with me but no riding for a year or more seems a little extreme.  If you want a great trail horse you must put it on the trail.  I believe groundwork is important first, exspecially for younger horses.  Riding and experiences builds trust and confidence for you and your horse.  I used to always hear folks say the "all that horse needs is some wet saddle blankets".  With the methods you are referring to it doesn't sound like there is much trail experience going on.

It also sounds like your friend is letting her horse pick the battles he wants to fight.  Bottom line he wins.  He gets to choose when he crosses that creek, bridge or gets in the trailer.  I know that obstacles can be hard, but letting your horse take 50 minutes to cross a bridge without really trying to get him to cross it is inconsiderate of your friends.  I agree with not beating or spurring a horse to death.  But, I think asking them repeatedly with a little leg pressure is not mean.  You are a better friend than I.  The heat and humidity in GA is so bad that there is no way I would have waited 50 minutes for her to cross that bridge.  I probably would have suggested we choose another trail without the bridge to cross.  Giving your fellow riders a chance to train on the trail is a great thing to do, but not really trying to establish a safe, respectful relationship could be costly in the future.  I also think you should think of your fellow riders.  No one wants to spend half the ride waiting on someone to cross the creek - especially if all they are going to do about it is stand in front of it and wait on the horse to decide whether or not it is something he wants to do.  I think it is Clinton Anderson who says horses think about three things - eating, sleeping and doing nothing (not working).  The quote may be wrong, but I think it's true for a lot of horses.  I have a great trail horse, but given the opportunity he would much rather eat than work.  Most horses would. 

I hope your friend works out her issues and finds a way (whomever's method it may be) to have a respectful relationship with her horse. 

Spooler and tom tom- I agree with you both and would like to add parelli isn't doing anything original at all. He just knows how to market his tapes,clincis,equipment..etc...

I watch when i can but overall, I can't stand the drippy/sappy overtones of the parelli group. Sorry but thats chick stuff.

I was just saying that when I was at parelli's seminars,I didn't see them standing in a trailer waiting for the horse to decide he wanted to load.Heck fire,I don't know too many of them that are going to come on in,and if they are,I sure don't want to be standing in there waiting on them .I think that's really dangerous.I know that trainers/clinicians such as John Lyons,Clint Anderson,and a lot of the others would agree on  not letting a horse be the boss.I don't think that the girl is really doing a whole lot of Parelli actual training,just some things that touch on it.Yes,it's always funny and informative to watch the "boss lady" mare.We have one in our group.she is 18.I noticed that she,and the next one down the line,her daughter,have had no problems teaching our 2 yr old gelding just how close in he can come.Matter of fact,I notice most of the time there is a GREAT distance in the pasture from him and these two mares.He thinks he has his bluff in on me,can run right up in my face,follow right behind me breathing down my neck,and get mad and wheel around and take off,kicking up both hind feet,when he's not getting fed and my confined filly is.He wouldn't pull that crap with "the old lady," tho! Same difference,he's just not quiet figured how far he can go with me yet.I have "Parelli'd" him too,but,not with a carrot stick,and not stroking him with it,either.I take my lunge whip out there with me,and if he gets in too close,he gets stroked,all right.I'm not about to go about it the long way around and get hurt or killed waiting for him to figure it out while I'm whispering.

PS I really like Julie Goodnight as a clinician.

Good for you,girl.Some Saddlebred trainers do sore their horses however.I'm glad you have "gone natural" with your fine horses.They don't need artificial aids.

His wife,"hot stuff" Linda,is probably the one responsible for the drippy/sappy overtones.She's the one that marketed Pat and brought him out in the open to start making all the do-re-mi.

well I just messed up that quote business. 

CRG you are dead on re current wife. Former wife Karen was not that way, altho they still use her photographs in the book.  The newer editions also have toned down some of the rhetoric such as deleting "gunsel."

I've never heard anything about his former wife,although I've seen his son at one of the seminars.

My husband says something to the effect of" he's got himself a hot tamale there" and "she latched onto daddy-o" that kind of talk,you know men.

BTW,what is "gundseal"? Is that one of Linda's terms?

I noticed that the second version of Level I had brought in some psychologist to add in her take on how people learn.That's a big deal,apparently,for Linda,she's got a thing for knowing about how people learn.I have always wondered,what the -  does that have to do with training a horse??

CRG

by and large it's not the horse that needs the training;  it's the people.  If you can find an early edition of the Parelli book published by Western Horseman, you will find it way less polished than the current package.....the current mrs is the marketing guru....

I first became aware of the Parelli thing before the current mrs.  In the book, Parelli made statements such as if one could not mount a horse bareback from the ground  then that person should not be riding.  I remember it vividly because I was 42, learning to ride a horse for the first time ever in my life and I had to use a mounting block.  If I had taken his book to heart, I would have quit right then.  But I did not, and well, the rest is history. 

In the original edition of the book, Parelli came across as a rude arrogant redneck chauvinist jerk....now that is just my op.....and as I said, the later editions of the book have been toned down or polished up.....because you cannot sell something to someone you just offended.

I saw the current Parelli show about 2 years ago at the Shelby Showplace arena (Memphis).  CRG, they had EXPENSIVE stuff that would FIX any problem anyone had...if they just had enuf money to throw at it.  And the whole show is designed to SELL the stuff. 

The only reason I went was some friends had some free tickets, 'cause ya no, I would not have paid to see a sales pitch.

ooooohhhhhh  I do sound cynical.......sorry  (NOT)

As far as watching a trainer, I am much more impressed by a trainer who is not pulling a tack trailer, and not trying to sell stuff.  Again just my 2 bits.....

Yeah,I get your drift.I DO have that older book by Pat before the English blonde mrs.came along.I remember reading what he said about mounting bareback.I thought,"Yeah,right,buddy,let's see YOU do it." WHich might not be so hard for a guy Pat's size,getting on one of those short legged wide backed QH's.

I thought they were a couple of nut cases when I saw them jumping picnic tables,ect.without bridles,saddles,that would not be so bad in itself,but,no helmets.Bad examples,IMO.

I liked the stuff for sale,not necessarily the programs even tho I have Level I (which I've used with success as I said) and Level II which I haven't used .What I liked were the clothes! And liked looking at those O'Farrel hats!!!

I remember approaching Pat at his table,and asking him if he rode any gaited horses.He looked up,and said,"Sure,I'll ride anything with hair and a tail." My husband and the man behind us sure didn't miss the humor in THAT.

I'm sure he thought it was funny too,getting one "over" on this old country gal. Myself,I thought it was a little out of line.My sense of humor obviously wasn't the same as his that day tho.

While none of these 'natural trainers' are my cup of tea....They don't allow horses to just stand there all day. If the horse doesn't choose to do as they ask in a reasonable amount of time they make the horse do something it doesn't prefer to do. Usually running around in a circle. So, your friend does not seem to 'get it'.

I think these people are masters at making money and one Parelli follower once told me that Parelli's program would 'make a person into a horseman'...I don't believe that at all.  Most of the techniques these trainers use, especially Parelli, are for use as tools during normal training. They are not necessarily meant to be the end product and are also meant to be used by thinking horsemen when they are training their horses. Some people never really do understand horses regardless of how hard they try. These are the one's usually following one of the Guru's as was stated earlier....

Happy trails

I have met Pat in person a couple of times...he is still an arrogant A--  JMHO.  I do like the show they put on (some of it anyway) but he was just not very nice when he was "greeting his public".

"In the book, Parelli made statements such as if one could not mount a horse bareback from the ground  then that person should not be riding."

What a jerk...I know a 17 h Warmblood that sometimes likes to take off at a dead run when someone tries to get on from the ground...wanna try , Mr Parelli?

Not to mention, what about handicapped riders?  Don't see many people in a wheelchair pulling themselves up from the ground.

All in all, spend your money on regular lessons with a good trainer, and good basic equipment, and you can't go wrong.

OOOHHH Yeah,he got it,allright! He's a man,after all!! He knew what he was doing far as THAT went.

I'd say Linda put one over on him that he didn't see coming.

And,wouldn't that be a funny sight,him trying to get on that 17hh Warmblood that takes off like he was shot out of a cannon,and Pat's about half on,half off,like in an old Roy Rogers/Hopalong cassidy movie or something.

Have been reading the post's and thought I would add my 2 cents. We bought a level one trained Parrelli horse about 2-3 years ago. He has been the best behaved easy to load horse we ever had. Now we are kinda  new to this horse thing. About 5 years. We own 3 horse's, they are all my daughter's and she is a 4-H kid. We started using Parelli methods on the other two and have seen improvement in there attitudes and personalities. My daughter got the level 1 cd's for free from another horse person and we bought the level 2 cd's ourselves. They have been helpfull but I would have to agree the Parrelli's are marketing guru's. With things like the savy club and being tested  on levels you can tell it was well thought out as far as a money generating operation. Of course you have to buy their sticks, ropes, halters etc. cause normal ones just will not work as well. I have also bought a Clinton Anderson book and have read it. It seems all natural horse trainers are more simular than different. Alot of the same "games" with different names. I must say that in watching the cd's I have never seen or heard Parrelli say that the horse sould be dominate over the rider. Quite the opposite, there is cause and effect to this methods. I actually think someone like Clinton Anderson is more aggresive in his methods but not to an unreasonalbe level.  I think IMO that Parrelli tries to come across as some one who would never smack a horse like some of the other Natural horse people might. I think this might give him a bigger following among some people who might not want to be to aggresive in how they treat their animals. For me I use Parrelli/Clinton Anderson methods when I work with my horse. But you'll never see me spend a dime on things like savy club membership. Also I think it is a really good idea to do ground training before you ever get on a horse. I believe to be just good basic horsemanship. I have seen too many kids at 4-h pull up in there trailers unload tack up and head for the arena with out ever seeing what kind of mood there horse's are in only to have them have trouble in the ring. So all in all take what works for you but keep reading and learning.

the parelli,s make alot of money  at what they do. so what. i would LOVE to  make money  with my passion for Horses.   would you feel better about them if they did,nt make any money at all ?   it would.,nt make a difference with who they are and what they do  .    I have my own dog grooming business, if someone  stepped in and showed me a better marketing plan...you bet I,d be all for .  

 if you got off your horse and led them across the bridge, they would more than likely just follow you. BUT if   the Horse went  all on it,s own...then you are building their confidense . I think your friend might not know when to encourage them a little when they do get bored.   also with the Trailer, when the horse starts to get bored then it is not concentrating on the task being asked and  needs some  encouragement. sound like your friend  is,nt stepping in when needed. the whole point  is to get respect from your horse and build  their confidense   so they can be independant and think about something rather than spook, or shy away ( their natural  response ).

I never did parelli with any of my horses until I got One that was WAAAY smarter than I was and  the traditional methods  were,nt working  and I had to find a different way to comunicate with her  before she killed Me !   She is  Now the best Horse I have ever owned  and I am proud to say we are a honest to goodness  TEAM !!!!     when I need Her, she is there and when she needs Me, I am there !  

We trailered to a short ride today,and were late getting there,and rather late leaving.We also wanted to go to town to eat after we got back home.My husband's big gelding has been used to being led in the trailer.I really don't like that at all,ESPECIALLY in a 2H trailer,even tho it is a slant load and pretty wide.I led him up to the trailer,and told him to "Get in,Red." Red didn't want to get in.Now,he's almost 12 and has been in trailers lots of times.I tried it again,he stepped sideways.It was hot,and I was tired,and my husband's at the trailer window saying "He's not used to going in like that."
DId I walk in the trailer and stand there in front of him looking at him for 30 minutes? No.Did I lead him in the trailer? NOPE.He's a big boy,and,I don't fancy getting smashed against the back tack wall as he maybe barrels out after he decides he doesn't want to be in after all.

I used the "CrowleysRIdge Girl" method.I got a broom out of the rear tack,and,when he stopped and tried to refuse again,I whacked him across the rear.

Might not be the carrot stick and lead rope trick,and I didn't make any money doing it,but,Red went in the trailer with no questions asked.

That is exactly what I do thanks to a hint from Hounddog....LOL..... If you think for a minute a lead mare is going to wiggle a rope at them you got another thought coming. She asks, then she tells........ It's just a form of pressure and release and it gets the job done quick.

As a friend of mine, the first woman in the top management position of a mulitcontinental corporation, she was from hard times, AR, she would say, "Common sense will be tolerated!"

Around here, the carrot (for eating) is up front and the broom at the back , the horse can choose, or it's our choice! 

Yes,and,if it was a fear issue with him,that would be different.At one time,it WAS a fear issue because we tried to force him into a trailer with butt ropes and a whip,and,guess what,WE LOST.But that was years ago.

He just flat didn't want to go in there without his "mommy" or "daddy" leading him in,and,it wasn't but a few hours ago that he had been in that same trailer.He was just refusing to do it our way.He's an excellent horse,and we have him for sale,but,we're now having second thoughts!

One of ours is going to have to go,it's hard to part with any horse and we are very attached to each one of ours.

Parelli is very good at what he does, as his wife is also, (very commercialized and I would not buy there equipment). I have to disagree with the statement Pat Parelli made about "if one couldn not mount a horse bareback from the ground then that person should not be riding".  Gosh up to age 40 i was doing well and could do that and  I can still ride bareback, but mounting bareback or with saddle.....why when you don't have to? . (smaller horse is not a problem) but my horse is 16 hands, and I am 5'2. I could do it, but I don't want to.   I wonder if he ever has a accident on his horse, but doesn't want to give up on riding and only needs a little help to mount?  I feel, I am older now and you just don't bounce as well, I will never give up riding as long as I can do it. In my mind I still can run and jump and ride off fast. Now days I am afraid of where I might land if I would try that, if you know what I mean!!! That is like saying older people shouldn't ride. My mom rode until 70 years old. Cancer got her but now her spirit for the love of her horse was so much in her. So what if we helped her up there, let her ride around a little. We knew what she use to be like. Called the WANT to.  Anyway with my horse  I use to mount from almost anything, still do and want them to let me mount them on each side from anything. if I have to get off on the trail, I want to be able to mount from a stump or even a hanging limb if needed.  I had knee problems, and fractured my elbow a few years back. I think it is a good thing I train all my horses to step up to a fence, or gate, or picnic table, ect and stand quiet and mount from there. I feel it is better on the horse than having to pull on them and pulling them off balance and saves my arm from hurting too? Especially on my older mounts. I have to agree with you notfromtexas about the good trainer, good basic equipment, and learning everything you can.  Natural horsemanship is very good, but I don't need a parlli tool to do it with. I should be quiet now. I have given up trainning and let my husband do it all now. I am done with green horses, just because I like to breath lol, but never going to quit riding, just riding more been there done that horses.

As my lovely bride, Cyclone indicates, I'm not much of a "Trainer Bigot"' type person.

I use what works for the horse.  Some of the Parelli's stuff is okay, some of it is pure mollycoddling and pandering to an audience that buys off on their methods like a religion.  I personally won't drink the Parelli Kool Aid. 

I like using various tools from my tool box...I'm well read and well versed in several methods...John Solomon Rarey, John Lyons, Gawani Pony Boy, Clinton Anderson, etc.  Really depends on the horse.

Not every horse needs to be layed down...it's a method that really works well for a really stubborn or mean-minded horse...but I won't do it to every horse I come upon.  Not necessary.

As far being able to ride bareback or I shouldn't be riding, what a "holier-than-thou" statement to make.  I'm certain I ride more in a week than both Parelli's combined, and I won't ride bareback...haven't in years.  No need to.  That's why we invented saddles, ya idiot.

Just my 2 cents.

I always ask my horse to do somthing- you know- ok lets hop in the trailer...they know how to load BUT my one gelding will hesitate. Sometimes its a matter of footing or balance but I know when its not...then its "get in NOW"...and a nice tap on butt with a crop or the end of the lead rope. I don't think parelli really teaches this wait until whenever method. They do not want to get into a fight with all the hitting,smacking and yelling...it doesn't work. ME thinks the OP friend was taking something out of context or misunderstood.

This sorta reminds me of a incident this summer at a show. I was riding the afore mentioned gelding at a show and there was a water puddle from the previous nights rain. It wasn't deep but it was something you could go through or go around. I chose going through, he didn't. So I had a choice, let the horse dictate the path or me. I, of course, chose my way since we weren't going to sink. I didn't yell, smack, or hit...just asked him to go. Each time he didn't want to, I didn't allow him to circle or back up. It took a few minutes, probably 15 mins, but he finally knew that we were going through it and he did. Then we did it again and again. Now when a similar situation occurs, he might hesitate but within a few minutes or less we are going over or through an obsticle. This can work if your willing to be firm and stick to it. Sitting there for an hour is silliness.

Very good vignette, farmbabe. 

My gelding's half-brother, Pepper, is nortorius for making his own choices with his novice owner.  I trained him up, and he knows the difference between my being on him and his owner. 

Tried to impress upon the owner that until you work to build a bond and trust relationship with the horse, he will always take his own way...backwards into brush, sideways to avoid mud...whatever. 

It's not the horse...it is understand the horse's fear and helping him overcome it...in a way that is patient and kind, but firm and impressionable to the horse.