Chad asked me some basic questions about trailering. At first I considered them simple to answer, then I realized they may answer some of the many questions, newcomers to the forum have been consistently placing. I thought a new thread would be apropos.

"Gard, perhaps this post belongs in my other thread.  You have posted a well written response but I have a few questions if you dont mind. 

First, did I read correctly that you say a GN is easier to hook up than a BP?  Seems like they are the same to me, with the exception of the tailgate being involved with the GN.

Second,  Ive never experienced any greater problems with the wind hauling a 2H BP than a GN?  To include hauling said trailer with the Trailblazer.

Third,  my BP puts my truck at basically 50%/50% front to rear weight distribution.  With my FIL's GN the trailer is heavier and more weight is put on the rear axle making the truck slightly rear heavy........not a big deal either way.  I dont understand your "the truck is better balanced than with a BP" statement."

1) When I hook up a bumper pull trailer, I don't use an optical or mechanical assist to locate the truck ball relative to the trailer's coupler. My guesstimates as to the exact placement of the two items are historically poor. My best attempt was a two round trip process. A round trip consists of backing as close as I dare to the trailer's hitch, without smashing the bumper or plate, or awaiting the next crunch. Then I get out of the cab, walk to the back of the truck, observe how far away the two components are, reenter the cab and try again. On my worse day, it took eleven attempts as I changed religions a few times, and my neighbours heard items only the Irish can bless.

Even with a titanium plate holding things together and most of my neck vertebrae fused, I can still look out of the back window of my super cab and see the ball in the middle of the bed. To hook up either GN trailer, I drop my tail gate, back the ball under the GN coupler, get out and lower the trailer onto the ball and I'm there. It's a done deal, no misses. Much easier indeed.

2) All my trailering comments will be based on a three horse BP and GN trailers, both of which I have owned, and I can accurately compare. The stability of a trailer is determined by a few factors. The trim, which is developed by the placement of the various weighting, the length of the wheel base and  the width of the track. The aerodynamics, which involve the shape of the trailer hull, and include the height and the amount of frontal area. The suspension has a great affect, depending on the type, springs vs torsion etc. The tires will effect ride and tracking, differing between bias ply and radial constructions.

My three horse BP trailer had an 18' box and with the hitch, was aprox 21' overall. My three horse GN has an 18' box, and a 7 1/2' goose with an overall length of aprox 25 1/2'. The wheel base on the BP, from the coupler to the centre of the forward wheel was aprox 11'. The wheel base on my GN from the coupler to the centre line of the forward tire is aprox 16 1/2', almost 5 feet longer.

A BP trailer depends on a light amount of tongue weight for stability,(10% -15%) while its main carrying is balanced on the two axles. This balance is critical, and with differing loads, can change radically, effecting the tracking. Any owner has experienced the various affects of weight shifting, when their horses have moved within the trailer. If the weight shifts rearward and the tongue unloads, the trailer will fishtail. If the load shifts forward and the hitch lowers, the load will shift to the trailer's front axle and the trailer will fishtail. The center of gravity is finite, based slightly behind the front axle.

A Gn trailer has two points of actual support, one at either extreme. It is less dependent on loading fluctuations, and is inherinttly more stable as a result. The loading can vary greatly with  less adverse affect

It's a crap shoot on whether a GN or BP trailer is more aerodynamic. The truck's windshield and roof directs some of the air to the top part of the goose area while affording some protection to the lower frontal areas. The low pressure area behind the truck's rear window, and the space between the window and trailer's nose, will pull the air down onto the front of a BP trailer, creating a great deal of turbulence and drag.

To summarize, a GN trailer has a longer wheelbase for the same length box; it benefits somewhat from an aerodynamic affect afforded by the truck's cab; and it has a more stable load carrying capability.

3) The balance of a truck varies greatly depending on if the hitch is in the bed or receiver mounted. Torque is the product of moment times arm length. I have a SD Ford, and the top of the receiver ball is 5' aft of the rear axle centerline. If I have a 3000# BP trailer with a proper tongue weight, the weight on the ball should be 300 -450LBS. The moment of 300 LBS times the arm length of five (5) feet equals 1500 FT LBS of torque. This would be the equivalent amount of weight you would be placing above the axle in the bed of the truck.

To put it more graphically, consider the rear axle the pivot point of a teeter totter. One end would be supporting the trailer tongue, the other the front of the truck. When additional weight is added to one end, the other ends tends to lift. Trailer tongue down, truck front up. This is why so many BP hitches need load equalization accessories. Without adequate rear truck leveling, the trailer's tongue will lower. This puts more weight on the trailer's front axle, causing an instability and the dreaded fishtailing.

To compound the equation, consider a truck's rear suspension. Basically the axle is supported in the middle of a spring, suspended and located on each end by shackle bolts. What is the rear most attachments of your suspension? Two shackle bolts, one on each of the rearward most points of your suspension. On my truck, this point is 2 1/2' ahead of the ball, meaning with 300#s on the ball, I have an effective loading of 750#. If I had a tongue weight of 1000#s, it would result in 2500#'s on the two bolts.

By having the weight suspended behind the suspension, all the stresses are placed on the most rearward parts of the suspension.

My 25 1/2' trailer weighs about 5600#s empty, with a tongue weight of aprox 1400#s. Even though this trailer weighs almost 2000#s more than the bumper pull, the effective weight on the rear axle of the truck, is actually 100#s less than the 300# tongue weight of the BP. More over, instead of all the weight being concentrated on the rear most shackle bolts, it is shared by the forward spring shackles as well. These attach points are aprox 2 1/2' feet ahead of the axle, which places some of the loading onto the forward part of the frame and its front suspension. The entire loading is now contained within the frame assembly, supported on four points. Instead of the rear loading trying to lift the front end, the weight load is being partially shared by the front suspension, and the truck is better balanced.

Hope this clarifies my statements.

Gard

I WISH!  Are you 7' tall and is this a long-bed truck?

Aside from checking make-up, I have never been able to use the mirrors for backing up or hooking up the trailer. At 5'2", I have learned to brace my right foot on the center part, under the dash board,sit WAAAYYY up twist around and line up the hitch to the ball. Sounds wierd and you'd have to be there to understand the process but it works.

Also- after reading this thread, I must admit to my eyes gazing over. I never DREAMED hooking up or pulling a trailer can be made to be so complicated, dry and boring.lets go back to something that wakes you up before the thread gets frozen.........

WELL! I guess you could sit and watch this!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAydLXmXaXs

This may have been headed to HWBar's for an extreme makeover!!

Ah HA!! Then you need my deluxe GN hooker-upper-thing-a-majiggie...   For a mere $2.50 you TOO can own one...

go to a good hardware store and buy a clamp like this:http://toolclip.thomasnet.com/item/tool-clips/finger-grip-adjustable-clips/2-b?&seo=110

You might only be able to find up to 1 1/4" ... which will work. They usually come 2 or 3 to a packet...

Then, a yardstick or similar sized piece of wood. 1/4" thick.

A 1/8" diameter, 1 1/2" bolt with a screw head.

several nuts and washers that fit the bolt.

Drill a hole about 1/2" up from one end of the yardstick. No more than 5/8" from the end, the hole diameter should be just a hair larger than the 1/8" bolt.  (so 5/32nds or 3/16th drill bit)

Insert the bolt with one washer, through the clamp from front to back. Attach a washer and nut and tighten. Add several more washers and nuts until there is about 3/8" of the bolt left. Insert the bolt through the hole in the yard stick. Apply another washer and nut. TIGHTEN EVERYTHING.

Now. Get in the bed of the truck and clamp the yardstick to the "waist" of the ball of the GN hitch so that the yardstick is between the ball and the cab of the truck and sticking straight up. no tilting allowed. Get into the cab and back the truck up to the trailer. Watch in your inside rearview mirror to align left-right on the trailer coupler.  Ease back slowly. When the coupler tips the yardstick over, you are ON target. : )  The yardstick falls over and clear of the ball.

Wow Gabz,  that is way too high tech for this old redneck.  What happened to the old standby toilet plunger on the GN ball???????  Although I tend not to miss anyway after about 8 million times of hooking up assorted trailers over the years. 

Gee... I must not be as old as I thought. I didn't know about the plunger... I like my little stick thingy. : )   Hi tech? hardly.

There is no way I can twist around in the driver's seat to see the ball in the bed of the truck. Tried it. Besides, I prefer using my mirrors. 

Oh... now that I have a little gas mizer car, I can leave the truck and trailer hooked up more often. :) that works good too.

My problem is the front-back distance. With the stinking tall sides on the bed and tailgate of the Ford pickup, and a spare tire on the jack wall, there is little room for error when backing under the trailer.  With the tailgate down there is not enough room to bend over to release the latch on the jack to raise the foot.

With nearly perfect level ground, it's also VERY easy to align - but if the ground is slightly or grossly uneven... it gets a little more tricky (as in parked in camping areas).

If the CG were ahead of the front axle of a three horse BP, several things would occur: The tongue weight would drastically change when the trailer is fully loaded, something that would be critical on many bumper hitch installations. If the hitch had a 300#-400# empty weight and a load of three horses increased it by the same amount ( 10% -15% of 3000#), if would exceed the capabilities of many towing vehicles including SUVs.

It would also cause the front axle to be excessively loaded compared to the rear axle. This would result in a towing instability, and eventually the front tires would wear faster than the rear.

None of these events occured in the tens of thousands of miles of towing and fifteen years of my ownership of our trailer. I pulled our trailer with three vehicles, two different trucks and a SUV. I never had a tracking problem, and when properly loaded, the trailer didn't appreciably have an increased tongue weight. This would have been readily apparent when using the SUV. While it had the optional factory towing package, suspension and tires, it had no automatic or auxiliary load leveling capabilities. It was sprung for comfort, not for a maximum amount of load carrying capability. Loaded or empty, the trailer had little effect on the ride height of the SUV.

Except for a minimal amount of tongue weight, necessary for proper tracking, a 3 horse bumper pull trailer does in fact, balance on the two axles. This is why the loading is so critical. By having the CG slightly behind the front axle, the tongue is weighted and any loads are still shared by the two axles.

The placement of the axles is absolutely critical in this installation. We have read postings about owners of a couple brands of trailers, that had improperly located axles. Tracking problems occurred, and one owner had to return her trailer, so the manufacturer could modify the axle placements.

Both axles have to carry the load, not just the front.

Gard

Well I've got my 3 horse BP trailer and it's hooked up to my SUV, already to go. The trailer and SUV look good there, sitting level, and enough static tongue weight is present to easily pull the trailer safely at any highway speed.

 My 1100# horse is being loaded now, but I just read that it should be placed into the forward stall. " The farther forward, the more stable the trailer will be". Accordingly, the weight should be "between the front axle and the hitch" for the "best satiability". The horse is standing in his appointed stall, and as I exit the trailer and look towards the SUV, I notice something wrong.

The back end of the Suv and the tongue of the trailer are only a few inches off the ground, no longer level, sitting on the wheel of the jack. Lets see, the directions say that if this happens, I will have to relocate and raise the hitch height. "Raising the ball will reduce the load and all will again be well." Ok, that's done and now the trailer is once again level. But my SUV still is sagging in the rear, and more importantly, I am now exceeding the factory weight rating for my receiver hitch.

I'm not going far, so I'll try things out anyway. The directions were correct, I definitely have "vagueness in the steering".  At every bump the rear axle is hitting the stops with a crashing noise, the first turn resulted in a series of "S" turns, and as I tried to accelerate to highway speeds, the trailer starts to fishtail. If it were nighttime, my headlights would be blinding tractor trailer operators. But it's ok, because my instructions say this is a "tow vehicle problem, not a trailer problem." Boy I'm relieved to know that!

Now that my vehicle is incapable of driving any distance safely, I have to correct the problems. There are a few: My hitch is overloaded, the tow vehicle's handling is drastically compromised, my trailer is not tracking well, and the rig is unstable at highway speeds. What should I do?

Lets go back to the beginning. The trailer was designed to sit on two axles and their placements were carefully considered, to allow a minimum amount of tongue weight to allow perfect tracking, without any auxiliary weight distribution or swaying aids being installed.

This time when I load the single horse, I'll put it in the center stall, the one which is just about at the balance point of the trailer over the two axles, with a slight forward bias. What happened to the hitch? Well, the SUV and the trailer settled down a couple of inches, but both are level. My hitch weight is now within specifications, and the headlights will actually illuminate the road.

As I pull away, the steering feels normal, and the rear axle doesn't bottom out as we pass over the curb. The first turn is rapidly approaching, as I hold on for the sudden swaying that's sure to follow. We're though it, with no adverse affects. The tracking was normal, the trailer followed the vehicle's path well. As we accelerate to the highway speed limit, there is no hint of fishtailing, and as I engage the cruise control, the prospect of a comfortable, safe ride is a pleasant thought.

The latter scenario using my 3 horse BP trailer, was enjoyed by me for a decade and a half, with three different tow vehicles and thousands of miles of travel. I had the gratification of excellent tracking and stability, never experienced a trailer blow out and was very pleased with my ownership.

I consistently broke the rule  ("kinda spread over the load carrying axles is a common mistake",) of putting the load over the CG, and furthermore, when I again use that type of trailer, I plan to further commit this infraction. Tongue weight is mandatory for proper tracking. More than necessary is detrimental and can be dangerous to yourself and your equipment.

Gard

Let's simplify:

Tongue weight good................except when overdone.

Tetter-Totter no so good.............bumps will increase the not so good.

Arse heavy, terrible................bumps will increase the terrible.

Remember don't straddle arse heavy trailer when unhooking.

Boats and boat trailers include many variables not found in the horse industry. The trailers are built with two criteria in mind, the length of the load and the weight it will carry. Within these parameters are many variables that will effect how a pontoon boat will ride on a trailer.

In PA, the largest motor that can be used on any state lake is 9.9 HP. A four stroke motor of that HP rating weighs approximately 100#. In NY state where we have our summer home, there are no HP or speed limitations on most of the lakes. Instead of a 9.9 motor, a 22' pontoon boat would be fitting with larger motors. In our marina, several can be found with twin 175 HP motors, larger yet when singles are specified. An E tech motor of that HP weighs somewhere around 425# +, or doubled, 850# + The larger motors require more fuel, so larger tanks will be installed, adding further weight to the transom.

You and I buy the same trailers and same pontoon boats. I have the small motor, you have the twins. My boat is loaded and the CG is pretty good. There is a 10% tongue weight, everything is working well.

Your boat is loaded and the skegs hit the ground, the tongue is pointed into the sky. A bunch of guys grab the tongue, pull it down, sandbagging and tying it to a hitch. The boat is pushed as far forward onto the trailer as possible, but it's still too light on the tongue. The trailer is jacked and the axles are moved into a more rearward position to carry all the weight of your big engines. The point is found where the CG is achieved, the axles are slipped a little father aft and now your tongue weight is at the prescribed 10%. Now you're good to go. Same boat, same trailer, different results.

Another scenario: A 19' boat and a trailer. A 19' boat can have many types of propulsion, outboard, Inboard outboard drive, or center mounted inboard. Their overall weights can vary greatly, and their CGs will be dictated by the location of their heaviest component, which usually is the power plant. The same trailer used under the same length boat, will have its axles placed at different points on the frame to effect the proper CG.

Because of these differences, boat trailers commonly have adjustable axles, winches and tie downs to effect the proper CG necessary for a proper towing trim. On multiple axle trailers, all of the axles are load bearing, and balance most of the load's weight among them. A proper tongue weight is mandatory on all towed vehicles, but loading the front axle excessively by placing the weight between the hitch and front axle is not desirable or safe.

If the CG were placed between these points, the hitch weight will increase drastically with a load, the front axle would be overloaded and the tracking of the trailer will be adversely compromised. BP trailers are designed to carry most of their weights on all of their axles, except for the necessary 10% tongue weight. 

This differs from a  GN trailer, that is designed to be loaded at each end. Their axles are found at the rearward end of the frame, pushing the CG far forward. Compare this to the BP trailers which have their axles located more forward, almost under the center of the box. The hitches extending past the box usually add enough forward weight bias to effect some of the necessary forward weight.

BP horse trailers change their load to effect the proper CG, boat trailers change the mechanical equipment to attain the correct balance.

When we hauled two horses in our BP, the heaviest one went in the front stall, the second one went in the rear most stall. This effectively helps to balance the trailer, without incurring a very heavy tongue weight. The center stall was left unused.

Gard

WOW. that's more than using my yardstick with a clamp. LOL... thanks. That is a good idead too. I think there are probably a couple of hundred year old threads that mention placing blocks on the ground when unhooking so that you know how far back to go.

I've put in crushed limestone at home after leveling - so at least that part is easy. : )

Some things about Reg,..............he's smart

Sometimes boring,...............

Usually right,................

I kinda missed him, I think,................

I think he enjoys playing with us earthlings,............

My quote was:

"Except for a minimal amount of tongue weight, necessary for proper tracking, a 3 horse bumper pull trailer does in fact, balance on the two axles. This is why the loading is so critical. By having the CG slightly behind the front axle, the tongue is weighted and any loads are still shared by the two axles. "

My example illustrated a three horse BP, but as you have now so eloquently proven, it applies to most tandem axle trailers as well. Thank you for corroborating my statements.

You made the previous statement: "The location of the C of G should actually be AHEAD of the front axle, a popular misconception is that it should be slightly behind the front axle, but that is almost impossible with most designs if an acceptable tongue weight is to be achieved." This differs completely from your voluminous calculations.

Now you are stating: "It can be taken that the mid point between the tandem axles is the effective rear point of support when calculating the location of a trailer's C of G and that it is the point at which 85% to 90% of the weight is (effectively) supported - for the purpose of this arithmetic, etc."

 Which is correct? Were you wrong then or are you wrong now?

Gee, you're absolutely correct, this has gone way beyond being tiresome. HO HUM

  Gard

The least amount of tongue weight that is necessary to effect a proper towing trim and stability, is the correct weight. The industry average of 10%-15% on a BP is just that, an average. In actual usage, the tongue weights will vary greatly by usage and loading. Using any heavier tongue weight than necessary, is detrimental to the increased wear on the towing vehicle's rear tires and suspension, and the resulting loss of fuel mileage.

A well designed trailer will not need a great deal of tongue weight to effect proper tracking. To artificiality add more is unnecessary and wasteful.

GN trailers are often advertised as having 25% of their weights on the hitch. Again this is an average, and will greatly vary from trailer to trailer. A GN with a four foot DR, will have less percentage of its weight on the hitch, than a GN with a long LQ, center tack, tip out and a mud room. Yet each one is calculated to have the same percentage of its weight on the hitch.

By the way, my mileage figure was for that one trailer. I've been pulling for 47 years, many different rigs, many more miles. You only need one mile to know when a trailer is tracking well or not.

Gard