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Regular
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Location: Decatur, Texas | Thanks to the members that helped with my tire questions. One last thing before I go spending bucks on new tires and wheels just to see it the tire dealers are blowing smoke or not. They are telling me that it is not a good idea to run any tires and wheels at the max. weight cap... ie:if the trailer has a gross axle weight of 14-k, that I really need to get tires and wheels that are rated closer to 15-k and also told me to keep in mind that if I really up the tire/wheel rating like going to a 17.5 that I would inturn be causing more stress on the axles and sups. system. Does this make any sence? | |
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 Extreme Veteran
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Location: Texas | If the tires can't handle their max rating then they should be rated lower. It's also not going to hurt to have tires that can handle more than the max that will be on them. 17.5's shouldn't cause more stress on anything, they really aren't much taller than a 16, (there are a lot of different heights on 16's). My large trailer has 17.5's on it but 16's were also an option when we were deciding what we wanted (they would have been at their max)....... I opted for the heavier commercial type tire that I hoped would cause fewer problems (so far so good).
Now that I've gone back read your initial post I would say you need the 17.5's.... and quite possibly heavier axles. Being close to the max weight for the tires is one thing but being over is another. | |
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Location: Northern Utah | Like Greyhorse said, If the tires are rated for a number, you should be able to run at that number. Lets take your engine for example. If your car's engine has a 6000rpm redline and you run it a 5800rpm ALL the time. Will it wear out faster than the same engine that is run at 2500 rpm most of the time with the occassional 5800 rpm spurt? I suggest yes. The closer to push things to their max, the more wear and tear you will sustain and the shorter the life cycle. So back to your tires. If they are rated for 15,000lbs and you run them at 15,000 lbs, you should be safe. But will the tires give you 50,000 miles or 35,000miles of wear? There is a trade off for everything. As far as the suspension. Will it matter if you run tires rated for more than the axle/suspension? No. You can run tires rated for 15,000lbs on axles rated for 14,000lbs. It won't affect your axles/suspension. But if you have a trailer that weighs 15,000lbs on a axle rated at 14,000lbs, (No matter what tire) you are overstressing the axle/suspension. Each component has a rating that it was designed for. You combine multiple componenets and the max rating you get will be the weakest component. You don't make an axle stronger by putting beefier tires on it. Luckily for you most of the major components are rated as an assembly. You don't have to calculate how much weight each lug nut will hold and then add all the lug nuts together. Or how much weight each bearing will carry, or how much weight each weld that attaches the axle to the trailer frame. The maker of the axle has done this work for you. They tell you this axle will support say 7000lbs per axle. You just add up how many axles you have times the rating of the axle ( Two axles x 7000lbs = a total of 14,000). And make sure the tires and wheels installed on the axles will support as much or more weight than the axle. All these components together make up a system. If you overload the system, you will experience excess wear and early failure of the various componenets. So your tire dealer telling you that by upgrading the tires to 17.5" you will cause more stress on the axles, he is really saying is that your tires and suspension were BOTH the weak link. By fixing the problems with the tires, you still have the problem with suspension. | |
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Regular
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Location: Decatur, Texas | Now you are talking with something I know about! (engines) That is what I am worried about, when I haul 4 horses and ready to hit the road I am running anywhere form 14,600 lbs to 15,300 lbs on the axles. And this is every weekend deal, not just a couple of times a year. That is the point the tire dealer is trying to make clear to me. I can put whatever I want on the ground as far as tires and wheels go (heavy 16's or even 17.5") but I will be moving the stress points toward the axles, mounting hardware then to the frame and so on. | |
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Expert
Posts: 5870
 
Location: western PA | You have to know how the ratings were effected. Were they chosen after a successful run of 10K miles? 20K? , 50 K? Under what conditions? Smooth roads? interstates? Dirt and gravel? What temperature extremes? Any component run at its maximum rated capacity, will not have as long a life span, as one that has a larger reserve capacity and is run at a smaller percentage of its capacity. If you are consistently running at 13K#, buy axles for 15K#. The same for all other components, engines, axles, transmission coolers etc. Gard | |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Barnesville, Ga. | What does your vin plate say is max capacity (GCVW) for the trailer? | |
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Location: Decatur, Texas | GCVW?? I guess you are talking about the total groos weight of the trailer it self, not hooked o the truck?
If so, the plate on the trailer shows 18,667lbs and I had it checked at a CAT scale and the actual wieght with out the waste water tanks full and our avg. horses we was at 18,8 and so change! The axle weight call for 14-k and we was at 14,600! These was done with in 15 mins apart on the same scale!
Edited by c.will_09 2008-08-08 1:52 PM
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Location: Decatur, Texas | OMG gard, now you got me totally lost! Let me try this, the time we had the blow out the better half was on a large 2 lane SMOOTH road, running 55 mph, dry weather temps in the 70's just before lunch and at that time she was hauling 2 horses and loaded for a weekend trail challenge so the trailer only had right at 12/13-k-lbs on the axles!. She said when the tire blew out it felt like the trailer came off the ground! | |
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Location: western PA | Originally written by c.will_09 on 2008-08-08 3:20 PM OMG gard, now you got me totally lost! Let me try this, the time we had the blow out the better half was on a large 2 lane SMOOTH road, running 55 mph, dry weather temps in the 70's just before lunch and at that time she was hauling 2 horses and loaded for a weekend trail challenge so the trailer only had right at 12/13-k-lbs on the axles!. She said when the tire blew out it felt like the trailer came off the ground! Under those conditions, you should not have had any problems if the tire pressures were correct and they were not overloaded. I've never had a trailer tire blow out, but last year I had one let go on the front of my truck. It felt like I hit a railroad tie, and bounced my front end in the air, with enough force to rip out my auxiliary gauge panel from the pillar. We jackknifed twice and were lucky enough not to be killed. When my truck was repaired, the first thing I did was to purchase a different brand of tires and got rid of the Firestone Steelex junk. Gard | |
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Location: Decatur, Texas | That is correct, at that time this trailer was under the groos axle weight. But what I was told was since we have run this trailer with 4 horses and have been actually "over loaded" on the axles and wheels and tires that this was the day for that tire to go. But was also told that if I had the correct rated tire and wheels that this might not have happened!
Edited by c.will_09 2008-08-08 5:53 PM
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Member
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Location: 03303 | When you're running at or near maximum weights, it becomes a little bit more complicated to figure out whether you are safe on each axle. Assuming your trailer is perfectly balanced, then the weight distribution will be apportioned correctly between the hook up and the two axles. In other words, assuming that your trailer and load equal a maximum of 10,000 pounds (aiming for ease of math here). Weight on the pin is 10% (this can vary with trailer design), which means 1,000 pounds should be on the pin. This means each axle is carrying 4,500 pounds (total of 9,000#), which is the rating of each axle. Make sense so far?
However, when you loaded the trailer, let's say that you made it nose heavy. You stuck too much stuff in the nose of your trailer. The result could be that you're pin weighs in at 2,000 pounds, your front axle weighs in at 4,500 pounds, and your back axle weighs in at 3,500 pounds. Notice that we haven't exceeded the weight limit on each axle, but we may have exceeded the weight limit on the truck.
Instead of being nose heavy, you can also be tail heavy. You might have 500 pounds on the pin, 4,500 pounds on the front axle, and 5,000 pounds on the rear axle. Notice that we have not exceeded the maximum weight on the trailer, but we have exceeded the weight limit on the rear axle. This is why weight on the axles is so important.
Both of these conditions could effect the handling of your rig. But if you have a stable truck and trailer combo, it might not. The closer you are to your maximum weight, however, the closer each axle and the pin come to exceeding their weight while not exceeding the maximum weight of the trailer. By the way, you can have problems side to side as well with tire maximum weight issues, but that's less likely.
Are we having fun yet?
Now remember that the maximum weight rating has a significant safety margin.
But as you're driving down the road, you have a complicating issue that means your weight goes into the danger zone. As your trailer travels, it goes up and down, and also hits bumps. Each effects the maximum weight loads for a brief instance. To give you an idea of how much your vertical travel can effect weight, use your household scale. Standing on it, bounce up and down, seeing how your weight changes. Your trailer does the same thing and going over big bumps can cause a load to go up, and then come down. Coming down enters into the safety zone (that's why they have it). However, the weight coming down can exceed the axle's ability to handle it, resulting in a bent axle.
Hitting bumps can also effect your axle. Each time you hit a bump, the axle retracts from the bump. This can bend an axle on either end.
Again, the closer you are to the maximum weight, the more likely this is to happen. But this is effected by your driving style and can be compensated for to some extent.
Best of luck,
Jim Clark-Dawe
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Location: Decatur, Texas | So that is why "EVERYONE" is telling me that I need heavier axle as well as tires and wheels. Because 90% of the time we are hauling and running at 14,600lbs or better axle weight everytime we haul all 4 horses, the other 10% we are only hauling 2 or 3 at a time.
Now give me some bad news! Is there anything else that could happen other than bending an axle? ie: frame, mounting hardware???
I do know that after we had the blow out, that not only damaged the fender and running board we notice that the outside skin around the mangers has cracks around the wheel opening that was not there before and the side of the trailer behind the axle has a bow in the outer skin. | |
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Location: western PA | Originally written by c.will_09 on 2008-08-08 11:09 PM
I do know that after we had the blow out, that not only damaged the fender and running board we notice that the outside skin around the mangers has cracks around the wheel opening that was not there before and the side of the trailer behind the axle has a bow in the outer skin. If these cracks and bowing occurred only after your blowout, I would have your frame checked for alignment and straightness. Bowed panels and new cracks suggest the frame was unusually stressed, and may have suffered some unseen damage. Gard | |
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Location: 03303 | So that is why "EVERYONE" is telling me that I need heavier axle as well as tires and wheels. Because 90% of the time we are hauling and running at 14,600lbs or better axle weight everytime we haul all 4 horses, the other 10% we are only hauling 2 or 3 at a time.
If you're scaling 14.6k on the axles, then you need axles and tires based around 15k (always round up). However, you really need to scale all of the axles on your truck and trailer. Take your truck to the nearest truck stop with a scale, without the trailer, but otherwise loaded, including all passengers. Fill the truck with fuel and then place on scale. You want the weight of front axle and rear axle and total truck weight.
Now go back home and get your trailer and load as normal. Go back to the truck stop and top off your fuel tanks. Depending on how good the scale is, you should get a minimum of weight on front axle of truck, weight on back axle of truck, and weight on trailer tandem. The weight of the truck should have increased. The total weight of your trailer is this increase in truck weight and the weight on the trailer tandems. If your tandems weight in at 14.6k, your truck weight should increase somewhere between 10 t0 20% of that amount (this is the weight on the pin or tongue).
Now go look at the labels on your truck and trailer. Are you exceeding the gross combined weight for truck and trailer (sticker in truck)? Are you exceeding the gross weight for the trailer? My guess is that your actual trailer weight is somewhere around 16.5 to 17k.
Now assuming that your trailer weight is within the maximum listed for the trailer, you know what the floor of your trailer is designed to survive. That's the one component that you really can't change. If you're over the limit, start throwing things off. Sometimes you can shift things from the trailer to the truck to get the weight right.
Now assuming your trailer weighs is at 17k, I'd personally go with 9k axles (total rating would be 18k). I'm assuming 18k is close or under the maximum weight the trailer can carry. This way I've built in a safety margin for the trailer axles. Under normal conditions, my 9k axles are only carrying 7.5k. However, I'm well aware that under normal driving conditions, occasionally for brief moments, the entire weight of my trailer might be on its axles (this happens when the bed of your truck all of a sudden feels light).
However, until you scale your truck and trailer, you don't know exactly what you've got and what you've got to solve. Further, some of the horse trailers with living quarters are only designed to carry two Shetland ponies and two inflatable horses for their four horse capacity, as they've crammed so much stuff into the living quarters that they've used up all of their capacity.
Now give me some bad news! Is there anything else that could happen other than bending an axle? ie: frame, mounting hardware???
I do know that after we had the blow out, that not only damaged the fender and running board we notice that the outside skin around the mangers has cracks around the wheel opening that was not there before and the side of the trailer behind the axle has a bow in the outer skin.
When a tire blows and shreds, that flapping rubber can cause a lot of destruction. It whips around at high speed, and weighs a lot. It easily can rip off a fender and cause other damage.
But the trick is you want the tires to be the first to go. Everything further into the system is more expensive to fix. To wander a bit, I have a heavy duty snowblower for my tractor. Last winter it was breaking shear bolts like crazy. I didn't have a snowstorm where I didn't break at least one. Crappy mechanic's fix is to make the shear bolt stronger. Wrong answer. They were breaking for a reason (one of the fins was bent just enough to cause problems). Fixing the real problem with a big hammer solved the shear bolt problem. Instead of breaking something more serious in the drive train, I was breaking something that took less than a minute to fix and cost under a dollar.
Same thing with a trailer. Breaking a tire is a lot cheaper and safer than something else breaking in the system. If you ever break an axle you'll know what I mean.
The closer you are to maximum weight, the more stress your putting on the entire system. The floor of your trailer is designed to flex and will flex through x number of cycles before it breaks (x here is a very large number). Flexing is worse the more weight you have on the trailer. Obviously when the floor flexes, everything else flexes.
When you blow a tire, the weight of your trailer shifts around as other components take up the weight. This increases stress on everything and can cause problems. However, without looking at your trailer, my guess is that the damage was caused by the tire winging around.
Best of luck,
Jim Clark-Dawe
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 317
Location: Barnesville, Ga. | I agree with everything you said, but what I don't understand is that when you talk to the design engineers at Dexter axle they will tell you that there torflex axles work better at max load. Doesn't make any sense to me. When I was checking on my wt issue everyone discourages you from running a heavier axle stating that the beefier axles would make for a harsher ride. I personally like for something to be over designed. My trailer had a 14K gvw rating which did not account for the pin load. They (design engineers at trailer mfr) deliberately understated the capacity as they were concerned about the dot. I had them send me a new sticker with correct gvw limit on it as I was not comfortable pulling a trailer that was grossly over its stated limit. I knew it was just a sticker but I demanded to know what it was designed for. Too many mfrs bet that the end users are not going to be using there product. They think it will sit 50 weeks out of the year and by the law of averages I guess they save a ton of money and don't really have a problem fixing a few squeaky wheels that use there trailers every week. | |
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Location: 03303 | I agree with everything you said, but what I don't understand is that when you talk to the design engineers at Dexter axle they will tell you that there torflex axles work better at max load. Doesn't make any sense to me. When I was checking on my wt issue everyone discourages you from running a heavier axle stating that the beefier axles would make for a harsher ride.
The reason that Dexter Axle says that about their torflex axles is because of the fact that the spring is built into the axle. Just to clarify something I didn't state, when you change the axle weight ratings, you also need to adjust the springs for the new weight rating. Torflex does that automatically as it comes as a unit.
Let's take your one ton truck and go for a drive down a bumpy road. Your bed is empty. Ride is going to be rough and somewhat nasty. The cure? You can either reduce the pressure in your tires (up to a certain point) or you can add weight to the bed of the truck.
By adding weight to the bed of the truck, we put some pressure onto the springs. This causes the springs to compress a bit and soak up some of the bounce. (This is what would also happen with torflex axles.) Up until a certain point, adding more weight improves the ride of a truck. This is especially noticeable with older trucks, as newer trucks are designed less around carrying a load. It used to be expected that a one ton spent a significant portion of its life carrying a load. Why else would anyone buy one?
This is why Dexter is saying you should have a load on your trailer. It compresses the springs and gives you a better ride. Same reason why adding an axle way above your needs will give you a harsher ride. The axle itself isn't the problem, it's the fact that the spring package is a lot stiffer to deal with the extra weight.
To deal with this bounce factor when empty, you should be reducing the pressure in your tires. This gives your tire more flex taking up some of the bounce. Again, take your one ton down the road with an empty bed. Reduce the pressure down to about 50 psi in the rear. Ride probably isn't too bad. Now drive the same road with the tires at 90 psi (remember to adjust these figures to your tire's capacity -- these numbers work for me). Ride is a lot worse.
However, if you throw 2,000 pounds into the back of your truck and run at 50 psi, you have the potential of the rim hitting the ground as you bounce down the road. You need to reduce the tire flex by increasing the air pressure.
Going back to the trailer involved here, let's say it's load is 16k with four horses in the back. Tires are appropriately rated and maximum tire pressure is 90 psi. I would start out at 90 psi and experiment on ride quality a bit, maybe going down to 80 psi, but probably not. I'm pretty near the maximum on the tire and I'd prefer a little bit too much air pressure to having too little.
However, let's say that instead of 4 horses, we only load two. That brings our weight down about 2k, which is about a 12.5% reduction. You'd probably want to bring your tire pressure down a bit, maybe somewhere between 85 to 70 psi. It softens the ride, but the tires can still handle the weight without any problem.
If we're traveling an extended distance empty, we might take some more air out (remembering that this trailer weights somewhere between 10 - 12k empty). Obviously we're only going to reduce tire pressure if we're traveling a significant distance. On the other hand, we're going to increase the pressure immediately upon adding weight. Too high tire pressure merely effects ride -- too low tire pressure effects safety.
One way of dealing with this is to add air bags or shocks to your suspension. By increasing or decreasing air, you can balance out weight versus ride.
Correct tire pressure has a significant impact on wear of your tire as well as fuel economy.
Best of luck,
Jim Clark-Dawe
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Location: Decatur, Texas | Ok, now I am totally LOST!
I scaled the trailer per the trailer manurfactures specs.. unloaded first, with only the items that came on the trailer. Took "dry" axle weight was 8800lbs and some change, then a gross "dry" trailer weight of 12,740lbs. Then went home and loaded all tack that we carry, filled all tanks except for the waste tanks, loaded 2 of our large horses and 2 small horses and ended up with a gross axle weight of 14,600lbs and a gross total weight of 18,800lbs! If we had used all 4 of our large hosres and filled the waste tanks we would hit the scale with around 15,300 on the axles and 19,500 gross.
Lucky for me when I bought my new truck last year I got an 2007 Dodge Ram 3500 cab and chassis and installed a hauler bed and this truck has a gvrw of 12,500lbs which is 2500 over a regular 1-ton truck. | |
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Location: 03303 | Do you mean lost as in that you are confused or do you mean lost in the sense that you have problems?
I'm hoping here that you have a dually, engine/exhaust brake, and a transmission temperature gauge.
You didn't give me the total weight for your truck and trailer combined. At 19.5k on the trailer, and a guess of 7.5k for your truck (including passengers), you have a total weight of 27k. Problem one is that if you look at all commercial, you need a CDL-A at that weight (26k is the limit).
Second problem is looking at what I believe at Dodge's specs for the 2008 Ram 3500, the maximum combined weight is 24k, putting you 3k over the combined weight limit for your truck. This can be verified by looking at the sticker in your truck for the combined weight. Again, looking at Dodge's specs, it appears that the maximum trailer weight for your vehicle is 16,350 pounds. This closely matches the 3k for the combined weight, so it looks at all of your excess is in your trailer.
Now assuming your trailer has a capacity of 20k (check the sticker on the trailer and maybe with the manufacturer), the question is where do you go from here. Best solution is to put your trailer on a diet. Shed some of those excess pounds. Your problem goes back to these things being designed for two Shetland ponies and two inflatable horses.
Assuming you want to run at this weight, what you need to do is compare what's different between the 3500 and the 4500. Engine and transmission should be okay, but definitely a transmission temperature gauge would be a wise investment. However, the rear suspension, rear axle, tires, and brakes are probably different. The only thing you can really change easily are your tires and these should be checked (they should be checked even if you bring your truck down to the limits, as frequently what people buy are not the tires you really need).
Assuming you go with Dodge's limits (16,350 pounds), I'd want to run either 8k or 9k axles with the appropriate tires and suspension. At 16,350 pounds for the trailer, you'd be at approximately 13k on the axles. This explains why the manufacturer put 7k axles on your trailer. It works, but there isn't a safety margin. I'm also wondering if the maximum weight for your trailer is somewhere around 16 - 17k, but I don't know.
Assuming you go with the 19.5k, you can go with either 9k or 10k axles. Minimum axles would be 8k.
Remember that you need to change the suspension and tires to match the new axles.
Best of luck,
Jim Clark-Dawe
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Location: Rocky Mount N.C. | (quote, equinetransport): Remember that you need to change the suspension and tires to match the new axles. Sounds like they should change the trailer to match the load they're trying to carry. c.will_09.. I asked you in a P.M. about what make/brand trailer do you have?.... I never got a response. There may be others on here that are almost in the same predicament as you so far as being overloaded...... An accident waiting to happen, if you will.
Edited by retento 2008-08-10 7:49 PM
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Location: Decatur, Texas | confused for sure! Yes I know I have a big problem, but have no clue what to do now. No tire dealer will install tires on the wheels that came on the trailer and now I am finding out that I really need much larger axles to carry the weight or carry it safely. Inturn, if I replace the tires/wheels/axles to heavier items, is or will the frame handle it since this trailer was built to handle 7-k lb equipment. YES my truck has dual wheels, factory exhaust brake! When I scaled I did get a total gross at the same time and I was over the 26-k! But in Texas running "farm plates" no CDL is needed. My truck is NOT the standard 3500 1-ton truck, it is the 3500 cab n chassis model which has a 12.5-k gvrw instead of 10-k also with firestone airbags! But I bought this truck after I bought the trailer so I could match it the trailer and the sticker on the trailer shows 18,667 lbs. gross! We just got back from a team sorting practice and seen a trailer like mine but in a 3 horse and they are having the same problems with tires also, but their trailer has 2 6-klbs axles with 8 ply tires and the empty weight of his trailer is almost 11-k lbs!
Edited by c.will_09 2008-08-10 11:52 PM
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Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain... | Without a question, you need heavier tires. With the heavier tires, you will have to have heavier rated wheels. That will alleviate some of your problems. One thing to keep in mind, especially in your situation of running max load...make sure your trailer is level when loaded. If you are high in the front, with torsion axles, you will have a weight transfer to the rear axle, which will require it to carry more than it already is. Same thing on the front axle if you are low in the front. At 14,000 the axles are designed to carry a 50/50 ratio. Level it out so that they are. Another thing that was said by equinetransport...put your trailer on a diet. You had said that your trailer empty weighed 8000 pounds. 4 horses averaging 1,100 is 4,400, tack is another 600, so that leaves 1,000 give or take for the 14,000 axle capacity. Take into consideration everything that you are carrying and if you really need it. If your LQ has a 60 gal water tank, and it is full, you are adding 500 pounds right there. If you are just going for the day, do you need to carry all of your water capacity? I am not criticizing, just saying take it into consideration. I could overload my trailer easily, but if I don't need it, I don't take it. Especially day runs. I carry 1/2 tank of water or less for the toilet and sink, and water the horses off of the grounds that I am at. One question...You are blowing tires...is it the same location, same axle, all different? | |
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Location: 03303 | Actually, you're not in bad shape on the trailer. You say the sticker says 18,667 pounds. When you scaled it, you were at 18,800, less than 150 pounds over. Your maximum weight of 19.5k is only 850 pounds over your trailer's maximum weight. This is less than 5% over, which isn't too bad. Obviously, you want to be within the weight limits, but you're still within the safety limits designed into your trailer.
Let's go back in time and think about the manufacturer and its thought processes. Looking at a catalog, the difference between 7k and 8k axle sets in cost is about $300. Now the manufacture can get a discount, but there is a cost savings going with 7k axles. Let's say the manufacturer saves $200 in costs using the 7k axle (remember you need two sets). On 1,000 trailers, the manufacture will save $200,000! And out of those thousand trailers, probably 900+ buyers would not have any problems.
There are some fit questions involved here, but the biggest is going to be tire clearance. Personally I'd go with a 9k axles, appropriate springs, and wheels and tires rated at 4,500 pounds or a bit better. You'd probably be fine with 8k axles and wheels and tires rated at 4k, but since you're already having problems, I'd go for the higher number and suffer with the stiffer ride. You probably won't even notice it.
With the truck, the weight you're looking at is gross combined rated weight. I think you're going to find it to be about 24 - 25k. One thing you want to look at is whether the load limit springs in the rear are maxed out (ask a mechanic to show them to you -- it's easy to see and hard to describe what you're looking for). I know a fair amount of people with one tons pulling your weight without any problems.
Best of luck,
Jim Clark-Dawe | |
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Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain... | Originally written by equinetransport on 2008-08-11 8:40 AM
Personally I'd go with a 9k axles, appropriate springs, and wheels and tires rated at 4,500 pounds or a bit better. You'd probably be fine with 8k axles and wheels and tires rated at 4k, but since you're already having problems, I'd go for the higher number and suffer with the stiffer ride. You probably won't even notice it. He might not notice the stiffer ride, but guaranteed the horses will.
Edited by Tresvolte 2008-08-11 9:02 AM
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Location: Decatur, Texas | 1st off my horses are well over 1100 avg. we have quarter horses and paints all ranch raised and used horses. I bet our avg is going to be closer to 1200 or 1250 AVG!
I get what you are saying about a diet! But when we go we are going for a "WEEKEND" trip 90% of the time and I also think about "am I going to have any trouble, am I going to have to spend and extra day, have and brake downs or anything that could happen" I never leave without the water tanks full just for that reason. Have been there and done that! That is why I bought a trailer with everything like we wanted. If I only needed to carry 1/2 of my stuff I would have bought a smaller trailer or kept the small one I had.
Almost all of the other brands of trailers I have looked at since I have had problems with tires and stuff, are well over rated on the tires/wheels/axles!
The major blowout that caused the damage was on the left rear. | |
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Location: Decatur, Texas | We looked at a couple of other trailer brands over the weekend and checked the vin plate and axle sticker and most of them show the grvw to be what ever the axle weight is. So if the trailer has 2 7-k lbs axles the trailer showed to have a gross weight of 14-k lbs. And the couple of dealers I talked to about this told me that the manurfactures do their trailer this way becasue most customers have no clue how much weight they actually carry so the manurfacture factures that in so there is no guessing. I also noticed that other trailers I have looked at that are the same size mine (but other brands) have 2 8-k lbs axles and 17.5 tires and wheels. Truck is fine, been to the Dodge house and to Freightliner loaded to let them look it over and they told me I was close but still in the limit. But if I wold have gone with the standard 1-ton I would be over the limit! | |
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Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain... | How many blowouts have you had? The reason I am asking is if you have had numerous on the same location, or same axle, it could be an axle issue. If they have been spread around on the trailer, I would upgrade the tires and go from there. Heavier axles are going to create some structural issues, ie: frame that the axles are mounted on will have to change. On torsion axles when you get larger, your mounting brackets get closer together, meaning your frame will have to get narrower, putting more fender inside your trailer. Upgrade the tires & axles, and if that stops your problems, good. If it doesn't, then you know you are going to have to change your axles which will be some considerable $$$$. Just my opinion, but that is where I would start. Good luck! | |
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Location: Decatur, Texas | So far just 1 blow out, but when I went to get the tire replaced the tire dealer pointed out the front tire on the same side and told me that the tire was seperating or had a broken belt inside the tire and need to get it off before I had another blow out. That is when they pointed out that the wheels was not rated for the psi of the tires. wheels rated for 80psi and tires rated for 94psi at 3500 lbs. SO if I run the tires at 80psi to match the wheels it looks like I have flats and could ruin a tire, if I run the tire at the rated weight of 94 psi now I have a chance to ruin a wheel and tire.  | |
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Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain... | Sounds like you are definitely have tire issues. I would upgrade the tires and wheels and go from there. Didn't I read somewhere that the tires are Winland poly belt? Get rid of them...you are going to sooner or later one at a time...and upgrade... | |
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Location: Decatur, Texas | YES, Winland tires. I got pictures of them last night and now I found out that the tire show to be a 14PR but on the other side that shows the weight rating it shows a load range F! That is a 12 ply! | |
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| You can mess with phatter tires, wider rims and heftier axles all you want, but that won't change the vehicle's weight rating on the VIN tag.
Hint/clue if you are weighed over what is shown on the VIN tag your whole day will be spoiled (-:
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Location: Decatur, Texas | What do you mean "your whole day will be spoiled (-:"?
After I thought about this for a little bit, I realize what you mean by spoil my whole day! Not really just 1 day either, it is everyday I need to use it. one because I can only actually haul 2 maybe 3 horses at eh most to stay within my weight limit and two, because I bought a 4 horse trailer for that reason, to haul 4 horse not to haul 3 hosrse and have to take another truck and trailer for the last one or even have to have someone pick up the last horse for me.
Not good at all when you spend that much money and expect it to be what you was told and have been told or researched about, then to find out that it is not at all!
Talk about a spoiled day!
Edited by c.will_09 2008-08-13 10:59 AM
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| Originally written by c.will_09 on 2008-08-13 10:25 AM
What do you mean "your whole day will be spoiled (-:"?
After I thought about this for a little bit, I realize what you mean by spoil my whole day! Not really just 1 day either, it is everyday I need to use it. one because I can only actually haul 2 maybe 3 horses at eh most to stay within my weight limit and two, because I bought a 4 horse trailer for that reason, to haul 4 horse not to haul 3 hosrse and have to take another truck and trailer for the last one or even have to have someone pick up the last horse for me.
Not good at all when you spend that much money and expect it to be what you was told and have been told or researched about, then to find out that it is not at all!
Talk about a spoiled day!
I guess the "take away" is to read the VIN tag before you buy.
Tires, rims and axle capacities should add up to more than the vehicle manufacturer's rated GVW. Did you get a 4 horse trailer that has a GVW less than it's curb weight plus 4 horses (nominal 1,000 lbs each) ?
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Location: Decatur, Texas | When I bought the trailer I was told the empty dry weight was 10,650lbs and the gross weight on the sticker shows 18,667lbs so that sould leave me just over 8000lbs. for horses, tack and supplies which should be good. But after we started having tire/wheel problems I had the trailer scaled at a CAT scale and that is when we found out the empty dry weight was actually 12,740lbs. so there is the problem, that cuts us back to under 6000lbs for 4 horses, tack and supplies. And using RANCH HORSES that avg around 1250lbs each that menas when I load 4 horses I am at 5000lbs and only have 1000lbs at the most for tack and supplies (water, feed, hay) That really dont sound bad if I am just going to the vet or have no need to haul tack or supplies with me. BUt that leads us back to the other problem, when loaded with 2 large horses and 2 small horses and all tanks full but the waste tanks I am over my axle weight by almost 700lbs. Then I can load all 4 of my large horses and I am almost 1100lbs. over my axle weight. | |
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Location: Decatur, Texas | Is there any type of federal regulation for trailer safety as far as tire, wheels, axles not being rated for the vehicle they are being used on? (ie:guidelines one must follow in the during any part of the building process) I found something called the RVIA, but I don't know if they are just for the LQ part of the trailer or for the entire structure. c.will | |
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| Originally written by c.will_09 on 2008-08-14 4:46 PM
Is there any type of federal regulation for trailer safety as far as tire, wheels, axles not being rated for the vehicle they are being used on? (ie:guidelines one must follow in the during any part of the building process) I found something called the RVIA, but I don't know if they are just for the LQ part of the trailer or for the entire structure. c.will
There is a manufacturer's association, I forgot the acronym.
Fed regs ?, sure.
Search GVW and I'm sure you'll come across them.
This might be a good place to start, happy reading;
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/topics/transportation.html
another edit;
This might be what you need ?
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/octqtr/pdf/49cfr571.120.pdf
Edited by Reg 2008-08-14 5:24 PM
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Location: Decatur, Texas | Thanks, I will check that out today. Nothing else to do seeing is how we are getting some much needed RAIN!53 | |
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Location: 03303 | The design of your trailer is perfectly legal. Your tag weight capacity is 18,667 pounds. You can put 14,000 pounds on your axles (I'm assuming your tires and wheels are rated at 3,500 pounds or better) and 4,667 pounds on the pin. The pin weight is 21.4% of the trailer's total weight. In theory, there is nothing wrong with that.
The problem is when reality sets in. Unless you're weight placement is perfect, if you're at your maximum, you're going to go over your limits.
The problem is there is no safety margin with this type of design. Conservative engineers design the pin and axles at more than the capacity weight.
Best of luck,
Jim Clark-Dawe
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Location: North of Detroit, MI | c_will... didn't you do scale weights for each axle? Is that on the trailer tires thread? If you have to put over 4K on the pin, then that would/should cover the LQ area and tanks??? just guessing here. Can you post your axle weights from the scale in this thread? | |
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Location: Decatur, Texas | Originally written by equinetransport on 2008-08-15 12:08 PM You can put 14,000 pounds on your axles (I'm assuming your tires and wheels are rated at 3,500 pounds or better) and 4,667 pounds on the pin. The pin weight is 21.4% of the trailer's total weight. In theory, there is nothing wrong with that. The problem is when reality sets in. Unless you're weight placement is perfect, if you're at your maximum, you're going to go over your limits. The problem is there is no safety margin with this type of design. Conservative engineers design the pin and axles at more than the capacity weight. Best of luck, Jim Clark-Dawe You are right with 2 7-k lbs axles I can haul 14-klbs on the axles. But the problem is, we was told (and the website states)when we bought the trailer that the empty weight is 10,650lbs. That would be great and we would not having the prboelms we are if that was the CORRECT weight. The actual empty dry weight of my trailer is 12,740lbs and that is what is messing up everything! But your other figures are correct. When I am loaded as I stated earlier with an axles weight of 14,660 and a gross weight of 18,800 I have 4140lbs on the pin (22%) which is not bad. Yes the tires are rated at 3500lbs @ 94psi and the wheels are rated at 3750lbs @ 80psi and this is where one of the problem lies. That is why no tire dealer around here will install new tires for me. The other problem is if the engineers are being "conservative" and the pin and axle weight was to be more than the actual capacity, why did this trailer not have 8-klbs axles at least? Unless the manurfacture is figuring the empty weight before they install the LQ but when you look at the paper work and the website under LQ model trailers that is where they have stated the weights of the each model trailer they offer. So to have a "safety margin" this should have had 8-klbs axles or even larger.
Edited by c.will_09 2008-08-15 4:58 PM
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Location: Decatur, Texas | Yes, here is what I copied from the othe post: Subject :
Posted : 2008-08-03 2:05 PM
Post #88901 - In reply to #88899 |
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I just looked at the link you posted and I think that is the tires this tire dealer in wanting to install, but what about the wheels? The info on the wheel shows a rating of 3750 lbs. but the psi is only 80#. This is the problem I guess, the dealer is telling me that if I install these tires and put a 100 or 110 psi in them that there is a chance the wheel would come apart! Subject :
Posted : 2008-08-03 2:52 PM
Post #88907 - In reply to #88905 |
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Yes, I have taken this trailer over the CAT scales and I had the tire dealer check it also and the gross weight is right at 19-k lbs. and the actual axle weight the time I checked it with 2 of my large horses and 2 of my avg. horses was 14,660lbs, but this was loaded with everything but the black and grey water tanks full. The empty or (dry) gross weight is 12,740lbs. I haul with a 07 Dodge cab -n chassis quad cab with CM hauler bed, 6.7 diesel, auto, factory exhaust brake (HELPS A TON with this load) and you are right we hit the scale loaded right at 25-k lbs loaded I think this is what you are asking for! As for as covering the LQ and stuff, it should , but it don't unless I only haul 3 horses. I bought a 4 horse trailer to be able to haul 4 horses in and assuming the manurfacture's number was correct. I was told to get smaller horses, carry less cargo and was even told that I should have know what this trailer weighed when I bought it. (well I thought I did know after weeks of internet research about this trailer)
Edited by c.will_09 2008-08-15 5:05 PM
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Location: Decatur, Texas | equinetransport, check out this thread when you get time. HELP tires / wheels 911! | |
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| Here's a write up of trailer manufacturer's obligation to keep tire records.
The manufacturer SHOULD be able to verify that the tires and rims delivered on the trailer were not switched after it left the factory.
http://www.natm.com/ComplianceTechnical/TireWheelRimPresentation/de...
Having just noticed your comments that the trailer's sales literature states a significantly different curb weight from actual - I think you have a case that you have been short changed on payload capacity.
GET 'EM !
Edit;
Just a thought;
Re-check the web site where it says 10,650 lbs empty.
Is that for a trailer with an unfinished camper section ?
{Is 2090 lbs "Likely" to be the result of fitting out a whatever size camper section ?}
Edited by Reg 2008-08-16 6:58 PM
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Location: Decatur, Texas | I have re checked it, my better half has re checked it and then we checked it again and copied it for our records. And it states 10,650lbs. for this model trailer and I assume this the weight when it leaves the factory. But I was told that the manurfacture checked a few of these "before" going into production, so that is telling me that the weight posted could very well be before the LQ package was installed. We also checked the website and found no option's for tire/wheel or axle upgrades on LQ model trailers. Now they are trying to tell me that it is my fault that the trailer does not have the correct equipment on it and I should have know about the weight when I ordered the trailer. YES, I ordered this trailer from an authorized dealer who was in contact with the manufacture during the entire process. So, my thinking is since I ordered it from a authorized dealer who was in contact with the manufacture during every step of the ordering process, the manufacture should have known if there was going to be a problem with the equipment on this size trailer. When I ordered it, we added some of the options that are available on this model. | |
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Location: Claxton, Ga. | Originally written by Reg on 2008-08-13 1:41 PM
You can mess with phatter tires, wider rims and heftier axles all you want, but that won't change the vehicle's weight rating on the VIN tag. Hint/clue if you are weighed over what is shown on the VIN tag your whole day will be spoiled (-: FYI, DOT goes by axle weight ratings and tire load capacity. The manufaturer GVWR number is a recommended number. Not an inforced number. Folks have been taken to court over this issue due to an accident and won the case because the GVW is a recommended number. The rules that I live by state to not go over the lower of the two, axle weight rating or tire weight rating. We can argue about this all day long but if you do some research you can form your own opinion. This is mine. A guy on DTR was sued for this issue and won the case. He was over his GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) and had an accident when a person pulled out in front of him. Needless to say, they were killed and everyone was sueing. He won the case. Enough said. | |
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| Originally written by Spooler on 2008-08-17 1:00 AM
Originally written by Reg on 2008-08-13 1:41 PM
You can mess with phatter tires, wider rims and heftier axles all you want, but that won't change the vehicle's weight rating on the VIN tag. Hint/clue if you are weighed over what is shown on the VIN tag your whole day will be spoiled (-: FYI, DOT goes by axle weight ratings and tire load capacity. The manufaturer GVWR number is a recommended number. Not an inforced number. Folks have been taken to court over this issue due to an accident and won the case because the GVW is a recommended number. The rules that I live by state to not go over the lower of the two, axle weight rating or tire weight rating. We can argue about this all day long but if you do some research you can form your own opinion. This is mine. A guy on DTR was sued for this issue and won the case. He was over his GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) and had an accident when a person pulled out in front of him. Needless to say, they were killed and everyone was sueing. He won the case. Enough said.
I have no doubt that you could "beat it" with a sufficiently good and presumably expensive lawyer. Almost anything can be beat, DUI and speeding being common.
It will still get you at least a ticket in CT or PA, that is enough to spoil your day and probably a month or two, even if you get off relatively lightly. | |
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Location: 03303 | I've read your thread on your tires. Basic short version is tires are being used with excessive weight, sidewalls of tire flex excessively, tires go "BOOM!"
Let's go back to the trailer manufacturer. It designs a trailer based on cost/benefits. This determines your price point. Also, depending on the manufacturer, its priority might be horse trailers or LQ. If the priority is LQ, the manufacturer is well aware that many travel trailers don't travel very much. Even a lot of horse trailers don't travel very far.
As a result, a manufacturer can put the minimal requirements on a trailer, working on the assumption that the trailer won't be traveling far enough for those minimal requirements to show up as a problem. Advantage is that the manufacturer can offer a cheaper product.
Your trailer meets the minimal requirements to safely get down the road, but you're using it at a heavier weight and more frequently than the manufacturer hoped for.
Empty weight of a trailer is just that. Empty. No cargo and LQ is cargo. Unfortunately, the manufacturers are not dealing with the situation. This goes back to many LQ trailers being designed for two Shetland ponies and two inflatable horses.
As I said, if I could fit them, I'd go with 8 or 9k axles and the appropriate tires and wheels. This would give a safety margin. Just increasing the tires and wheels leaves the potential of busted or bent axles. Blowing a tire is a lot better.
Alternatives would include a diet, or maybe just slowing down. On the bright side, replacing the axles doesn't produce just junk, but some stuff you can resell.
I do feel sorry for you. A lot of the stuff here is known, but it just isn't being told.
Best of luck,
Jim Clark-Dawe
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Location: Decatur, Texas | So they offer and build a 4 horse trailer with LQ to haul 4 hosres in, it is upto the customer to make sure it has the right equipment to handle the weight? I understand that a few manufactures will take the cheap way out, but this goes back to the tires and wheels casuing the main problem. They was not matched for the trailer to begain with. I just check the small gooseneck that we bought a couple of weeks ago 07 S&H 3 horse with a 2' SW and it has an empty weight of 4400lbs with 2 5200lbs axles, 2 10ply tires rated at 3640lbs at 80psi and steel wheel rated at 3750lbs at 80psi. It is hard to believe that a new $7000.00 trailer has the right equipment to haul horses safely and a $60-k LQ trailer does not! | |
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| I think it might be an either/or choice.
Empty trailer 10,xxx lbs as a shell.
Your choice on how you fill it up - to the limit of axles, rims, tires, GVW, whatever comes first.
Whatever weight goes in as camper section fittings gets subtracted from what can go in as horse flesh - or the other way around, according to priorities.
The choice seems to be between carrying a fitted out camper, or horses, or some of each. Just can't have ALL of each.
e.g. If the camper section has to have a lot of tile and marble think more towards a couple of small ponies. If you MUST haul drafts use motels or B&Bs | |
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Location: Decatur, Texas | I have checked their websit many times and talked to my dealer, other dealers, and flyers and the weight they are stating is the full LQ ready to hit the road. | |
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Location: Claxton, Ga. | What were your weights over each axle when you hit the scales loaded?
Edited by Spooler 2008-08-17 10:39 PM
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Location: western PA | I've been reading about your plight and can empathize with your predicament. It sounds as if your problem has been well analyzed, and you know what your limitations are. To me, it sounds as if you have a few choices, none of them being inexpensive or easy. The first would be to try to cut your losses and replace your trailer. The second is to spend some serious money replacing and upgrading to the proper running gear and hoping the frame is strong enough for the modifications. The third is using the legal system which is expensive, time consuming and not always beneficial. The fourth is one I would try. Unless you can expect the trailer's manufacturer to come up with a favourable resolution, you have an item that isn't working for you. The more time spent on trying to make it work, the less time you have to enjoy your hobby and life. Consult an attorney for his best advise. If he agrees, get rid of the problem, keep all your records and start your litigation. In the mean time, purchase what you need to satisfy your requirements and move on. Life is short and you have to grasp as much of it as you can, now.. Best of luck Gard | |
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Location: Decatur, Texas | Thank you, I have bought a trailer to use until I can figure out what to do about this one. Manufacture offered todays wholesale value to buy it back. But in my opinion that is a complete insult and a insult from them telling me to get smaller horse. Seeing how we have had troubles with this thing since the 4th day we had it and have been going round and round for a year now and the more I research the more I find out I am not the only on having problems, but I guess I am the only one not wanting to take their bs any longer. Luck forme my better half keeps perfect records and has every single email to and from reguarding all the problems since we have bought this trailer. | |
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Location: Decatur, Texas | Not sure how they split up I just know that I check it and the trailer shop checked it also and came up with the same figures. 14,660 axle with 2 large horses, 2 avg. horses, all full but the waste tanks. I'm sure the repair shop knows how to get the correct weight, seeing how all they do is trailer repair and I would say 90% of their buisness is axle work and air ride equipment conversions. | |
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Location: Decatur, Texas | gard, Another question. I had another shop check my trailer today to get a quote on installing larger axles, tires and wheels and was told that it could be done. But the main problem is going to be if DOT starts checking horse trailer closer and I get checked loaded and my axle weight is over 14-k lbs that I would get a ticket and may have to unload to get my weight at or under the 14-k rating that is listed on the vin tag because I would have no way to change the figures on that sticker. The other problem he is informing me about is hardware and mounting points on the frame will need to be replaced or reinforced. Then I got the good news, the cost! I am looking at around 15-k or so depending on how much reinfocement is needed. This includes, 2 8-k lbs Dexter axles, 4 17.5" steel wheel, 4 17.5" trailer tires that are rated at 4800lbs each, raising and reinforcing the frame from the axles toward the front of the trailer. I thought it was high, but he told me that this was a big job and would be just as easy to get rid of the trailer and buy a differrent brand fast! So the actaul question is, does these figures seam right? | |
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Location: western PA | The costs do seem high, but the upgrades will involve a lot of work. You should be able to get an idea of the cost of materials by checking out Dexter's web site, and other's to price the wheels and tires and various parts, etc. I don't see why a fabrication shop, with all the parts in hand, couldn't complete most of the physical swap in a day, two at the out set. Figure the cost of materials, and add an hourly rate for two mechanics for two days, add a few hundred for shop supplies, and you should be able to establish a ball park figure. There will be a problem with the documentation. After all your upgrades are completed, according to the law, your trailer still only has the original capabilities as posted on the manufacturer's data plate. Only the manufacturer can post the limitations, as he is also bound by various rules and regulations, to build a trailer within certain specifications. The manufacturer undoubtedly will not issue an addendum, because he would then be responsible for work, of which he has no knowledge. Another problem is the original trailer's frame. Your trailer's manufacturer has a history of installing undersized components and overstating its capabilities. How do you know that the upgraded components won't overtax the frame? Your trailer is only as good as its weakest component. It would take a structural engineer to asses and evaluate the capabilities of what your trailer has. It might be that beside your new axle attaching points, a crack may develop in your frame. Your suspension is upgraded, but all of that loading is transferred to other parts of the frame. The weak link will fail. All a fabricator can do is use his best judgement, in guesstimating where he thinks additional reinforcement will be necessary. If he makes a mistake and the frame fails as a result, any resulting injuries will put him partially to blame. There won't be too many people willing to make that commitment. Under the law, there are two basic principals that apply to you. The first, "warranty of merchantability", applies to the fact that you bought a specific trailer to do a specific job. Your dealer and manufacturer were paid and charged to build you a product that meet both your specifications, and those of which they publish. That was a contract which they did not meet. The second principal is one where you have to mitigate your losses. In other words, sooner, rather than later, you will have to make a decision about the disposition of the trailer, and then do so. You will not be able to let this situation continue at length without a resolution. This may mean, that you will have to sell your trailer at a substantial loss, or trade it back to the manufacturer, also at a loss, and buy a new one. Once you have accomplished this transaction, then with your completely documented paperwork, you can establish your loss. This loss is what you and your attorney can litigate. Unfortunately, he will take 33 1/3% of your winnings, plus costs. However, if you can prove that the manufacturer deceived you, or that it acted unfairly and deliberately misrepresented facts, then punitive damages can be asked for. These can be in addition to your actual losses, if you can prove that they were in any way, harmful to you. I think you have a dead horse, and kicking it any further will only result in a sore foot and a bad headache. I personally would not throw any more good money after bad. Find a good attorney and start over. Best of luck Gard | |
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Location: Decatur, Texas | Thanks so much for your help. That is what a bunch of people have told me to do. Not use good money to cover the bad. And now I have a cost of replair or cost to try and repair this trailer and 2 differrent certified trailer repair shops have give me the same type report. (could be upgraded but NOT worth it because of the stress on the original frame). I would love just to dump this turd, but I do not feel right trying to selling it or trading it off knowing the problems and the dangers that is has.
Edited by c.will_09 2008-08-19 3:02 PM
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| Originally written by c.will_09 on 2008-08-19 10:45 AM
Thanks so much for your help. That is what a bunch of people have told me to do. Not use good money to cover the bad. And now I have a cost of replair or cost to try and repair this trailer and 2 differrent certified trailer repair shops have give me the same type report. (could be upgraded but worth it because of the stress on the original frame). I would love just to dump this turd, but I do not feel right trying to selling it or trading it off knowing the problems and the dangers that is has.
Stronger components underneath will not significantly affect stress in the frame or upper body.
Loading it to that new capacity might, e.g. if the underbody gets you a GVW of 22,000 you just MIGHT decide to use it (-:
I agree with the general notion that you can get out of this a lot cheaper by getting out of this. Find someone with a Yak or Alpaca farm who wants 4 stalls and the camper facilities, avoid buyers who have percherons.
A "fer real" truck/trailer re-builder COULD reconstruct and certify what they have done to a different GVW. They "finish the production" of many trailers that come as not much more than a bare frame. The paperwork process is very similar to what they do when they put a platform bed or work body on a chassis/cab. Again, this is almost certainly the least worthwhile route for you to take.
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Location: North of Detroit, MI | Not just alpacas ... Small Arabs, Rocky Mountain or Mountain pleasure horses, etc. are typically under 1000 pounds. Pony Clubbers ... too :) But if you find an alpaca website or two... those folks really spend the $$$ on their critters. : ) like some other people I know. | |
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Location: Decatur, Texas | This is not the only issues with this trailer, it is just the icing on the cake! Some stuff I could overlook, but when it come to the safety of my family and animals it an't happening! And I'm sure not going to put up with it when the company knew about the problem and has said nothing about it to anyone. c.will | |
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Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
