Posted 2016-04-19 11:34 PM (#166826 - in reply to #166729) Subject: RE: GRANDMA gets threatened with jail in Kansas
Expert
Posts: 3853 Location: Vermont
What gets horse haulers in trouble with DOT is violating the line 390.3(f)(3) The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise; https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/390.3 Becasue they are going to or coming from a horse show where they won some amount of money...no matter how little...that is the violation that turns on the DOT money generator...and then when they issue the slew of commercial hauling violations...then the bucks roll in to the state...
Posted 2016-04-20 5:41 AM (#166829 - in reply to #166729) Subject: RE: GRANDMA gets threatened with jail in Kansas
Veteran
Posts: 233 Location: Pataskala, Ohio
I have a LQ 4 horse. It's empty weight is 8420 (I weighed it) and max weight of 14900ish pounds. My truck is a Chevy 2500HD with a Basic Operating Weight of 7000 pounds max "takeoff" weight of 9200 pounds. Just looking at the numbers my rig can weigh around 24,000 pounds. My trailer is greater than 10,000 pounds but is also an RV.I am beginning to move my horses to shows where are my daughter can win prizes. She will win less than $10 per class at most and entry fees are $5, but at the end of the year she may win a jacket or belt buckle. I will be using the 4 horse LQ because that is my only trailer.We may move to a different show, Congress, we live in Central Ohio, but the prizes are greater. I will still be using the LQ trailer, until my 7 year old wins a new trailer Will I need a CDL to move the horses 25 miles from the farm to the fairgrounds?Am I exempt from the CDL rule because of the RV trailer?
Posted 2016-04-20 8:14 AM (#166831 - in reply to #166829) Subject: RE: GRANDMA gets threatened with jail in Kansas
Elite Veteran
Posts: 804 Location: Tenn/Ala.
Originally written by Jeepplr on 2016-04-20 5:41 AM
I have a LQ 4 horse. It's empty weight is 8420 (I weighed it) and max weight of 14900ish pounds. My truck is a Chevy 2500HD with a Basic Operating Weight of 7000 pounds max "takeoff" weight of 9200 pounds. Just looking at the numbers my rig can weigh around 24,000 pounds. My trailer is greater than 10,000 pounds but is also an RV.I am beginning to move my horses to shows where are my daughter can win prizes. She will win less than $10 per class at most and entry fees are $5, but at the end of the year she may win a jacket or belt buckle. I will be using the 4 horse LQ because that is my only trailer.We may move to a different show, Congress, we live in Central Ohio, but the prizes are greater. I will still be using the LQ trailer, until my 7 year old wins a new trailer Will I need a CDL to move the horses 25 miles from the farm to the fairgrounds?Am I exempt from the CDL rule because of the RV trailer?
I can't speak for Ohio, but in Tenn you have a choice to register it as an RV (which replates/renews annually) or as a semi-trailer (permanent plate). The official DOT class (that every business with trucks must go through) will tell you the money isn't the important part. To them, it is
A) Trailer over 10,000#- if yes then Class B CDL.
B) Truck & trailer's GVWR combine to 26,000# or more, then Class A CDL.
The agriculture exemption mentioned frequently here applies to hauling your farm's production, on the first step of distribution. So hauling colts to a sale, you can go 150 miles exempt. To a show- must license.
And to further your defense- we were recently required to become licensed as a Recreational Vehicle Dealer in order to sell trailers with living quarters, as the state of Tenn has decided that they qualify as an RV. So adds to your defense of any citations in Tenn anyway.
Posted 2016-04-24 3:20 PM (#166880 - in reply to #166824) Subject: RE: GRANDMA gets threatened with jail in Kansas
Veteran
Posts: 175 Location: Florida
Not being involved in'interstate commerce' only exempts you from dot numbers and log books, not a CDL. CDLs are still required by weight and vehicle classifications, but you can get an exception from commercial medical card requirements by not being involved in 'interstate commerce'. The hole in the system is the acceptance of show winnings causing you to be a commercial - for profit (earnings) enterprise, even though the earnings are far less than the cost. As explained by a US DOT agent, even acceptance of a ribbon as an award is considered as earnings as it increases the value of your horse. He implied the laws need to be modified to exempt the casual event participant. What is interesting, those towing cars to shows, are not being targeted (???)
Posted 2016-05-06 4:57 PM (#167001 - in reply to #166729) Subject: RE: GRANDMA gets threatened with jail in Kansas
Elite Veteran
Posts: 657 Location: Rayne, LA
Warning!! If you pull a 3-horse trailer with a one ton dually you may be profiled as an illegal and subject to jail.Yes, she was told she could go to jail. Or worse, have her horses abandoned by the roadside till a "qualified" driver could be found.My wife just experienced it first hand. Yes we have video and pictures. Her first sin was not using her turn signal long enough to exit from the highway------------------- What is the proper distance to put your turn signal on?
Posted 2016-05-06 9:23 PM (#167004 - in reply to #166880) Subject: RE: GRANDMA gets threatened with jail in Kansas
Expert
Posts: 3853 Location: Vermont
Originally written by PDGx on 2016-04-24 6:20 PM
Not being involved in'interstate commerce' only exempts you from dot numbers and log books, not a CDL. CDLs are still required by weight and vehicle classifications, but you can get an exception from commercial medical card requirements by not being involved in 'interstate commerce'. The hole in the system is the acceptance of show winnings causing you to be a commercial - for profit (earnings) enterprise, even though the earnings are far less than the cost. As explained by a US DOT agent, even acceptance of a ribbon as an award is considered as earnings as it increases the value of your horse. He implied the laws need to be modified to exempt the casual event participant. What is interesting, those towing cars to shows, are not being targeted (???)
Hornet pointed out in the CDL thread...And the FMCSA answer to that is provided on their website.Question 21: Does the exemption in ยง390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/390.3?guidance
Posted 2016-05-07 7:53 AM (#167007 - in reply to #166729) Subject: RE: GRANDMA gets threatened with jail in Kansas
Expert
Posts: 1989 Location: South Central OK
Got my answer, kinda, I do need a CDL due to the weight of the trailer being over the 10,001 pound number. The state of OK (at this time) is not enforcing CDL requirements on anything w/ farm tags. Once I leave the state all bets are off, so I'll be getting the correct CDL after I can find some time to get to that office during daylight! She gave me a quick check method on this topic (how officers are checking, around here) take your door jam sticker and add the GVWR of the truck and the GVWR of the trailer. If the sum of those GVWR is over 26,001 then you need a CDL, the exact type of CDL depends on the weight breakdown and type of rig. The officer confirmed that if your truck + trailer classifies as needing a CDL then you can take the driving test with your truck + trailer. You will not have to go to truck driving school or rent a semi for the test. If you have questions please call your state DOT, and the states in which you'll be driving.)
Posted 2016-05-07 8:21 AM (#167008 - in reply to #167007) Subject: RE: GRANDMA gets threatened with jail in Kansas
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 379 Location: Missouri
That's one reason I did not put farm tags on my truck. In Missouri farm tags are A LOT cheaper then regular tags for the same weight rating. However my research revealed that by having farm tags on the truck and then leaving the state of Missouri I would be attesting to interstate commerce. The registration savings is not worth the cost of being caught.
GRANDMA gets threatened with jail in Kansas
Will I need a CDL to move the horses 25 miles from the farm to the fairgrounds?Am I exempt from the CDL rule because of the RV trailer?
