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Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?

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AQHA 123
Reg. Oct 2008
Posted 2008-12-20 3:47 PM (#96327)
Subject: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?


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Posts: 241
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Hey guys, I need to get educated on what electrical options I have for my weekender conversion. I was talking to my electrician neighbor who I'm going to hire to do the electrical work. He told me he will need to run two systems if I want the ability to use the battery in the trailer and the gas generator. He said each will have its own lights ect. Two separate grids.He said something about 6 volt and 12 volt. I'm a little embarrassed at how little I know about this electrical stuff. One more question-- can the trailer run off my truck battery or do I need to have a battery just for the trailer? If a battery is needed on the trailer I think I will contact my Hart dealer and have him add that to the trailer I already ordered. Should the battery be outside the trailer or can it go in the boot box??Thank you for your help guys. Gard, get your thinking cap on. :)
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gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2008-12-20 8:29 PM (#96333 - in reply to #96327)
Subject: RE: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?


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Location: western PA

Most batteries are mounted externally to the LQ area, usually on the outside of the front bulkhead underneath the goose. If it is mounted inside, it has to be externally vented to prevent explosive gasses from accumulating during its charging cycles. You should check with the RIVA regulations, about its storage in a living space and confined area. I've owned truck campers that included internal battery storage, but I personally have never seen one mounted inside, in a trailer LQ installation. Perhaps some of our professional installers in this forum can shed more light on that subject.

There are generally two voltage systems that are commonly used in campers and horse trailer LQs. Typically, an AC shore cord supplies 110 V to a power distribution box inside your LQ, which feeds your air conditioner, micro wave and other high amperage appliances. This cord can also be plugged into your generator, or if you like, a permanent switch over circuit can be installed, wherein you can choose your AC source; IE generator or shore power.

You will need a second battery mounted nearby your generator, if you have an electric start model. It will be self charging, directly from your generator.

A converter is also powered from the distribution box, that changes the AC 110 voltage into 12 V DC. This feeds your low voltage lighting, gas powered appliances, water pump and recharges your battery (ies).

Two 6 V batteries are sometimes used in series to increase the amount of amperage that can be stored, as apposed to one 12v battery. In our weekender, one common 12v marine battery suffices for a long weekend. (two nights) This additional capacity, probably would not be a major consideration for you, since you are planning to use a generator.

Some camping areas have time limits on generator noise and usage. If you didn't have access to a shore power source, a battery would be necessary for lighting, and to start your gas fired equipment, such as the hot water heater, refrigerator and furnace.

Best of luck   Gard

 



Edited by gard 2008-12-20 11:16 PM
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deranger
Reg. Jan 2004
Posted 2008-12-21 7:15 AM (#96339 - in reply to #96327)
Subject: RE: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?


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Location: Hagerstown, MD

Let's see if we can simplify the electrics in your weekender.  Your electrician is correct, you will need two grids.  One grid will be to supply electric to lights and water pump if you plan on having running water and it will be a 12 volt system.  I would also recommend the electrician supply the 12 volt battery and it will need to be a "deep cycle" marine type battery.  He can find a place to mount it for you and I think it would simplifiy things to let him have the choice of where to put it.  Depending on how much 110 volt current you need will depend on how many accessories you plan on using.  Talk this over with your electrician and he will take a look at wattage (volts x amps) and come up with a design that will probably work just fine for you.  Hair dryers and coffee makers use a lot current.  I would stay away from a switching device and double batteries unless you have a really large demand for 12 volt current.  A simply, pull start, 2500 watt generator is probably all you need for your weekender and you can find them all day long on Ebay, Lowes, Home Depot and some auto parts stores.

Happy trails,

deranger

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Turfa
Reg. Mar 2004
Posted 2008-12-21 9:43 AM (#96342 - in reply to #96327)
Subject: RE: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?


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I guess that I would like to add my two cents worth.  Everything above is correct but I would like to explain it a little different.

110 Volt power, such as a generator or plugging into the house, will be needed to run the Air, Microwave, Hair dryer, Etc.  The 110 V system can also power a converter which produces 12V power to run your interior/ exterior lights, water pump, some fans and other 12volt powered items.

When the unit is not plugged into the Generator or house, and, you want to turn on the lights, you will need some sort of 12V power IE Battery.  It is best to mount it external to the living quarters as stated above, but also because it contains acid.  The 12Volt power can be supplied by two 6volt batteries hooked together. or by a single 12 volt battery.  The deep discharge batteries are designed to last a long time and being recharged.  Standard car type batteries are made to give off a lot of power in a short time and to be quickly recharged by the alternator.  If you try to use your truck batteries to run your lights you also run the chance of running the battery down, and not being able to get the truck started.

Back to the wiring.  The battery should be installed in the 12Volt side of the wiring and Power converter will recharge it when plugged into the 110V Generator or house.  12Volt wiring is smaller and lighter than 110Volt wiring, as are the light fixtures, and switches. 

I hope that this helps some and if you have any other questions let us know.

Turfa

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Painted Horse
Reg. May 2005
Posted 2008-12-21 9:43 AM (#96343 - in reply to #96327)
Subject: RE: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?



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Great advice above.

A couple of other things.  As your trailers get heavier and you get older, you will gravitate to either electric or hydralic jack to lift the trailer off the ball.  I don't know how much amperage they draw, but the trailers I have bought with either jack type have always had two deep cycle batteries.  If your trailer has a crank jack now, you may want to have enough battery power to run either of the power jacks if you added them in the future.

I would make al the lights low voltage and run off the 12v system. That way you have lights regardless of if you are connected to shore power or generator.  This will require some sort of a converter to convert 110v power to 12v. 

I never use the A/C here where I live. So most of my 110 v use is to run Microwave and charge my batteries. I occassionally use a George Foreman electric grill to cook meat. So I would place 110v outlets where ever you may want to plug in electric appliances.   Appliances you may want, Flat Screen TV, Microwave, hair blower, coffee maker, place to charge cell phone or laptop,  I like a plug on the out side of my trailer.  I cook a lot on a folding tabe just outside the door of the LQ.

Put your battery outside.  Put your converter and breaker panel inside.  They will easily fit inside a small cabinet or boot box.

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Terri
Reg. Jan 2004
Posted 2008-12-21 1:44 PM (#96354 - in reply to #96327)
Subject: RE: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?



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Location: Southern New Mexico
If you just ordered it why don't you have the factory install the electrical wiring. 
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AQHA 123
Reg. Oct 2008
Posted 2008-12-21 4:13 PM (#96357 - in reply to #96327)
Subject: RE: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?


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Posts: 241
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Wow, this is some great information guys. Thank you all. I am taking notes. :)
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deranger
Reg. Jan 2004
Posted 2008-12-21 6:53 PM (#96364 - in reply to #96354)
Subject: RE: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?


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Posts: 954
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Location: Hagerstown, MD

Originally written by Terri on 2008-12-21 2:44 PM

If you just ordered it why don't you have the factory install the electrical wiring. 

Terri, it's probably expensive, more like is expensive to have any conversion work done on a horse trailer.  I think for what AQHA 123 is looking for, a good electrician can knock it out in a weekend?  I did most of the work on my old arrow nose Wrangler 4h a few years ago.  My needs weren't too extravigant and just wanted to add a few conveniences for me and the wife on a long weekend.  With the help of one of the guys from church, we got it done in about two working days or less than 20 hours.  Compared to a couple of estimates I had from some RV dealerships, it was REALLY worth it to do it myself.  I spent about $250.00 in parts and already had a small generator.  A few pieces of luan plywood, some 3/4 round molding and we felt like we moved uptown! 

deranger



Edited by deranger 2008-12-21 7:00 PM
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Horsemen
Reg. Oct 2008
Posted 2008-12-22 3:59 AM (#96366 - in reply to #96333)
Subject: RE: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?


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Posts: 119
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I am getting confuse here I thought that a inverter changes 110 volt to 12 volt so you can run 110 off the battery when shorepower was not avilable and a converter changes 12 volt to 110 volt so you can run your 12 volt light off shorepower Thanks
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retento
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2008-12-22 4:16 AM (#96367 - in reply to #96366)
Subject: RE: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?


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Location: Rocky Mount N.C.

Originally written by Horsemen on 2008-12-22 4:59 AM

I am getting confuse here I thought that a inverter changes 110 volt to 12 volt so you can run 110 off the battery when shorepower was not avilable and a converter changes 12 volt to 110 volt so you can run your 12 volt light off shorepower Thanks

 

An inverter is an electrical or electro-mechanical device that converts direct current (DC) to alternating current (AC); the resulting AC can be at any required voltage and frequency with the use of appropriate transformers, switching, and control circuits.

Static inverters have no moving parts and are used in a wide range of applications, from small switching power supplies in computers, to large electric utility high-voltage direct current applications that transport bulk power. Inverters are commonly used to supply AC power from DC sources such as solar panels or batteries.

The electrical inverter is a high-power electronic oscillator. It is so named because early mechanical AC to DC converters were made to work in reverse, and thus were "inverted", to convert DC to AC. The inverter performs the opposite function of a rectifier.

There are a number of methods for converting voltage. For Alternating current (AC) a transformer can be used to decrease or increase the voltage. The common power supplies for small electronics usually have a transformer that drops the voltage down to relatively small voltage ranging from 4.5 to 12 volts, a full-wave rectifier to convert the AC to a pulsed Direct Current and some additional components to flatten the wave. Some devices have only a transformer in the external power supply with any rectifier or additional power conditioning provided inside the appliance.

 



Edited by retento 2008-12-22 4:23 AM
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deranger
Reg. Jan 2004
Posted 2008-12-22 5:24 AM (#96368 - in reply to #96327)
Subject: RE: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?


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Posts: 954
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Location: Hagerstown, MD

Retento........wow!  So that sort of explains how I can have an inverter on my diesel p/up truck, pull up on a jobsite and plug my 110 volt electric drill in to make holes in a fence post for gate hinges without the need of a generator.  And I can also make a pot of coffee at lunchtime for the me and boys out on a jobsite.  Pretty cool stuff when you can have a hot cup of coffee and the chill factor is way below freezing.

deranger

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gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2008-12-22 10:13 AM (#96377 - in reply to #96327)
Subject: RE: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?


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Posts: 5870
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Location: western PA

As a follow up on where to place the battery, I was able to find these "Code of Federal Regulations: Title 49 transportation." They are generic and not specifically directed at RV installations.

TITLE 49 - TRANSPORTATION

SUBTITLE B - OTHER REGULATIONS RELATING TO TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER III - FEDERAL MOTOR CARRIER SAFETY ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

SUBCHAPTER B - FEDERAL MOTOR CARRIER SAFETY REGULATIONS

PART 393 - PARTS AND ACCESSORIES NECESSARY FOR SAFE OPERATION

subpart b - LAMPS, REFLECTIVE DEVICES, AND ELECTRICAL WIRING

393.30 - Battery installation.

Every storage battery on every vehicle, unless located in the engine compartment, shall be covered by a fixed part of the motor vehicle or protected by a removable cover or enclosure. Removable covers or enclosures shall be substantial and shall be securely latched or fastened. The storage battery compartment and adjacent metal parts which might corrode by reason of battery leakage shall be painted or coated with an acid-resisting paint or coating and shall have openings to provide ample battery ventilation and drainage. Wherever the cable to the starting motor passes through a metal compartment, the cable shall be protected against grounding by an acid and waterproof insulating bushing. Wherever a battery and a fuel tank are both placed under the driver's seat, they shall be partitioned from each other, and each compartment shall be provided with an independent cover, ventilation, and drainage.

I can't find any specific RIVA regulations concerning the battery installation.

Gard

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Terri
Reg. Jan 2004
Posted 2008-12-22 2:22 PM (#96381 - in reply to #96364)
Subject: RE: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?



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Posts: 2828
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Location: Southern New Mexico

I didn't figure it would be that much more expensive to just have the builder run the wires (not the whole interior) while they were wiring everything else. 

I can do the 12v stuff myself but not the 110.  I don't play with electricity when the consequences of doing it wrong are potentially fatal.

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deranger
Reg. Jan 2004
Posted 2008-12-22 4:35 PM (#96386 - in reply to #96381)
Subject: RE: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?


Elite Veteran


Posts: 954
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Location: Hagerstown, MD
Originally written by Terri on 2008-12-22 3:22 PM

I didn't figure it would be that much more expensive to just have the builder run the wires (not the whole interior) while they were wiring everything else. 

I can do the 12v stuff myself but not the 110.  I don't play with electricity when the consequences of doing it wrong are potentially fatal.

Terri, 12 volts is considerably less dangerous than 110, but it still has it's potential for harm.  If you have ever seen a 12 volt battery explode.........well, let's say it's a pretty memorable experience.  My first was on a motorcycle that I happened to be riding at the time when the battery said, "good bye cruel world."  The second one was on piece of construction equipment while the mechanic was working on it in the shop.  It evacuated the shop just from the noise.

deranger



Edited by deranger 2008-12-22 4:39 PM
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TPenning
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2009-01-11 3:53 PM (#97317 - in reply to #96327)
Subject: RE: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?


Veteran


Posts: 151
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Location: Manitoba, Canada

Just to throw in one more component for consideration here --- how about charging the battery with a solar panel?

I'm hopefully going to have the wiring on my empty LQ done this spring.  I want to have a shore line, a generator, and a battery, and I would like to have a solar panel to charge said battery, in addition to charging off the generator.  We're planning on keeping the trailer battery separate from the truck altogether, which is why I'm pondering the solar panel to perhaps "Trickle charge" the battery.  Any ideas? 

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gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2009-01-11 7:10 PM (#97318 - in reply to #96327)
Subject: RE: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?


Expert


Posts: 5870
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Location: western PA

Solar panels work well as a trickle charger. Our only problem is some over charging when the trailer is not regularly used. I have to constantly monitor my battery water levels.

Gard

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TPenning
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2009-01-11 7:50 PM (#97321 - in reply to #96327)
Subject: RE: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?


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Posts: 151
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Location: Manitoba, Canada

Ahh, here's something that might help that "over charging" concern of yours. I found this the other day while researching solar panels.

"In addition to the solar panel you will require some kind of voltage regulator to keep the panel from overcharging your battery if left connected for long periods of time. Even small solar panels can erode the battery plates and boil away electrolyte on lead-acid batteries requiring expensive battery replacement. Some solar panels are called "self-regulating" - which is not entirely true. A self regulating solar panel has fewer cells, giving a lower open circuit output voltage closer to 15 VDC, hence less likely to overcharge your battery. Charge controllers are high efficiency (low loss) voltage regulators that are wired between the solar panel and the battery bank being charged. Their function is to disconnect the solar panel when the battery has fully charged and automatically re-connect the panel when the battery voltage drops. If not disconnected, a solar panel will try to drive the battery voltage to as high as 18-19 VDC - a level most batteries take exception to.

Many charge controllers have set points that can be varied so both wet and gell batteries can be protected. Some charge controllers have indicator lights that tell you whether the solar panel is charging the battery or "floating" so you don't have to guess whether it's working. The simplest charge controller have a fixed voltage set point and no indicators of any kind to tell you what's happening. The most sophisticated charge controllers have digital LCD display of battery voltage, charging current, and load current and may offer "Load Disconnect" - the ability to remove any drain from the battery if the battery voltage drops too low."

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maccwall
Reg. May 2004
Posted 2009-01-12 12:07 PM (#97340 - in reply to #97321)
Subject: RE: Electrical for weekender.... Do I need a battery?



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Posts: 524
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Location: Lone Oak, Tx
Tpenning is correct. If you use a larger solar panel as a power source, you will need a charge controller. As it states, it regulates the the charging of the batteries. If it's just one of those trickle type chargers that you connect yourself with clamps to the battery then the controller would not be needed. I have a 40 watt panel on top of my trailer and I have yet to run out of battery power. I highly recommend one if you plan on camping out in the boonies.

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