I have purchased a Lakota bumper pull with living accomodations (2 horse) and have a problem with swaying....only with horses in it.  No horses and it does not sway.

Can anyone give me a suggestion as to what I can do to right this?

I pull it with a FORD 250 P/U Diesel 4X4 which I purchased recently also.

I have read up on weight distribution setups and in fact when I purchased this trailer I drove a Chevy Avalance with an antisway bar (this is what dealer who sold me the unit said would work) and a customer at Campers World pointed out to me that the truck was sitting down.

I ordered a weight distribution setup and they said they would have to rearrange my setup (battery sits on front of unit) and also move propane tanks on front of unit?

I have since sold this truck and now have a Ford 250 heavy duty which sits level.  I have been to one hitch place and they suggest just antisway bars but I have to bring the trailer in to have the tonge weight confirmed first.

I just want to fix this right and hate to keep spending money and find out it still doesn't work.  I almost killed myself twice already.

Where are the trailer axles in relation to your horses? When you have no sway while unloaded, it is an indication that there is a proper hitch weight loading. When your horses are loaded and there is swaying, that might be an indication that the hitch weight is being unloaded, and too much weight is being placed on the back of the trailer.

A scale placed under your trailer hitch, will quickly indicate the actual loaded and unloaded tongue weights of your trailer.

If your horses are located more behind the axles than over them, this may be a problem. An anti-sway system can't cure an improperly balanced trailer. You might want to check this before you spend a lot of money on speculation.

BOL  Gard

If you go to Lakotatrailers.com and click on THE HUT you will see the bumper pull two horse trailer w/ living accododations that I own.  The wheels are under the two horses - slant load.

I feel as you said. that the hitch weight is being unloaded.  The Hitch store I went to will weight the tongue if I bring the trailer into them which I think will be my next step. 

I would say my horses are over the wheels....maybe the first in is, which is my heaviest - about 1200 lbs.  the back horse is only about 900 lbs

I would like to thank you for your help. 

Is there anyway I can download a picture of my whole rig?  For now I need to thank you for your good advice

 The hitch I use is a 4" drop as my tires are 20" and it is a 4X4 Super Duty Truck.  My hitch is solid (not hollow) as this trailer does have a heavy tongue weight.  This combination is long but my shocks, springs, suspension etc are made for towing this trailer.  I specifically shopped to pull this trailer.

When hitched it appears to be very very level.  My truck does not sit at all when I put the trailer on the hitch....very little movement.

Yes, I took the trailer back to the dealer when this first happened and I almost lost the trailer, horses and a passenger.  They said it was my truck..at that time a Chevy Avalance and gave me one antisway bar and sent me on my way...which was 5 hour drive.  So do I value this dealers opinion...I don't think so.

Another dealer of this trailer (225 miles no of me) says to put on a weight distribution ...but I do not feel my truck has a weight distribution problem and if this trailer has that problem then the manufactor should fix this. Can you imagine....a antisway bar...a new truck....new hitch.....alot of bucks here.

I can understand your dilemma. I pulled a Lakota HUT with a F250 also, and thought I was going to run off the road on a curve, while empty. Can only imagine what it is like with horses. I guess that is why most manufacturers only put a Living Quarter in Goosenecks. The trailer would probably be okay behind a bus or big RV.

Good luck- there is no scarier feeling than having the tail wag the dog.

I just wish I would have had this problem empty.  I had no problem empty and I had no horses to use at the time as I was 5 hours away from home.  I actually fishtailed with two horses in it the first time I loaded horses because I was on a winding country road doing 50 mph.  This is when the dealer put a antisway bar on, but I live in flat country so on the straight a way it seemed to work but then I was extremely careful to the point of being rundown on the highway.  this is why I purchased a new truck.

I was with my son-in-law when I purchased this and he was a tractor trailer driver who questioned the location of the wheels compared to another similar trailer on the lot and was told there was no difference.  I think I can say there was a difference now.

Hopefully the manufacturer will justify this problem before I kill myself.

I don't think your tow vehicles are at fault, and considering an even larger one will be futile. In the pictures I observed of similar trailers, it seems that the axles are more to the front of the trailer, in relation to your horses, than conventional non LQ BP trailers. I would assume this was done to lighten the load on a BP hitch which normally is much less than a GN hitch. Your LQ adds a great deal of weight to the front of the trailer, which has to be balanced by the axles.

Again, if the tongue could be weighed while the trailer is empty and then again with your horses loaded, I think you would immediately know where the problem is located.

As was previously stated, the attitude of the trailer tongue is also important. Most owners tow with a slightly high nose pitch. If the trailer were nose low, it would load up the front axle and negatively effect the handling.

I have a flat bed trailer that tows very well. On one trip when I was carrying two carriages, the loading was off and it was tail heavy. The whole trip home was spent at a slow speed as the trailer wagged its way down the road.

It may be that the only fix would be to relocate the axles further rearward on the frame.

BOL  Gard

I think this is my problem.  Do you think something like this can be fixed, or is it a design issue and it will be a permanent problem?

How can I find out....what type of professional person would I go to to confirm if there is a design problem or not?

I did have someone pull this trail with a Ford 350 construction vehicle that pulls flatbeds with heave equipment loaded and they had the same problem.  Only difference is they were able to go 2 more MPH before it happened to them.

It is  a heavy trailer....with a tongue weight, that I want to get weighed to confirm, of approximately 1,000 lbs.

I just purchased a new hitch.  This is a solid rod (not hollow like most) and it has an additional 1" drop.  I was thinking like you said, to give my tongue more weight.  I am also going to fill my water tanks and waste tanks with water for more weight.

On Monday I am going to a hitch place and have the tongue weighed.  I think this needs to be my next step right now.

thanks

I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE A MINUTE AND THANK EVERYONE ON THIS CHAT FOR SHARING THEIR KNOWLEDGE WITH ME.  IT IS SO FRUSTRATING TO HAVE NO ONE TO ASK AND YOU GUYS HAVE HELPED ME MORE THAN I EVER EXPECTED.  IT IS ALL GOOD INFORMATION THAT I REALLY APPRECIATE.  KEEP WRITING

THANKS

Teri

The trailer weighing on Monday should give you the information you will need to make a decision.

If the trailer does unweight the tongue when loaded, you will basically only have two choices. One is to try to redesign the trailer's wheelbase by relocating the axles, fenders and brake wiring. This will void any warranty and may be speculative at best, in that, knowing exactly how far to move things is not a given.

The second may be your best choice. Sell your BP and purchase a comparably equipped GN trailer. Your new truck will handle one easily. You will immediately feel differently while driving this type of rig. There is no swaying, oncoming or passing trucks do not bother you, a corner is no different than a straight road.

You have an expensive trailer that doesn't work. If you could get anything near its value, a GN replacement could be quite viable. There are a multitude of used GN with LQs, some at reasonable prices.

Gard

I am going this direction.

I have been in contact with Lakota about this problem and am hoping they will have an answer and a solution to me this week.  Yes, you are right, I spent quite a bit of money for my "dream trailer" and could have purchased a gooseneck...but did not want to purchase a new truck....and as you see I ended up with a new truck with a bumper pull that does not work.

You are right, I do not want to void my warrantee.

Wish me luck

The trailer manufacturer has to provide a product that is suitable for its intended purpose. If it is a danger to those who use it because of a design flaw, the manufacturer is liable for any preexisting or known dangers to people or property. (horses included)

If you do not get any satisfaction from your dealer and Lakota about returning the trailer, I would immediately seek the services of an attorney.

I'm sure they will initially try to discount the severity of the problem and blame your truck or driving habits as being the basis of the problem. There was another posting of an other owner who described similar problems. I would try to access as many owners as possible to find a larger voice in your complaint.

You are involved in an untenable, life threatening situation. There is no way you can safely use this product. The dealer and manufacturer should be held fully accountable.

Gard

I just heard from the manufacturer and they are saying besides a sway bar a weight distribution kit is also an item that should be installed on my trailer.  I sent them several photos of my setup.  If you look above you will see a photo sent by gatorjet.

Yes you are right it is a new product but you know if no one buys a new product they can miss the boat.  Yes, they can be the first to have problems but I would like to think this was tested before put out on the market.

I have spoken to the dealer I purchased this unit from yesterday and they are trying to help me find out what is wrong also.  what my plans are now are to 1.  Dealer feels my tongue weight might be lowering the trailer when I load the horses as the unit sways behind the wheels of the trailer and that could indicate when I load horses it lowers my trailer (nose down) and that could cause the type of sway I get, so I am using a level and if true, I will use a higher hitch and make her level and then try it.  Right now she appears level but I did not check when horses in trailer..only by eye.  Hopefully the dealer hit on something.  wouldn't that be nice.  I personally feel horses in is taking the weight off of the tongue but I have to start illiminating things.

2.  My company is going to put this trailer on a lift Monday and check tires and frame work to make sure I do not have a crack, bad weld or rotation of tire problem.  This is a good thing they are doing for me.  I guess they want to keep me around a little longer.

I think one thing that was wrong is that the dealer should have been specific about the truck I was towing with was not sufficient.  I learned that the hard way.  the dealer just found out I purchased a new truck and am having this problem and hopefully they will help me find a solution.

The Manufacturer says I need to use my sway bar and a weight distribution kit that should b e installed on my trailer????????

My question is....If I used a Semi to tow this would I need a distribution kit then too.....My goodness this truck is made for towing.  Plus they are asking me to spend another 1,000 on this problem that nobody seems to know why it is happening.

What was your outcome with the Lakota.  Did you ever find a solution? or did you just test drive one?

I finally did call the dealer....see reply below

And they are working with me...problem is they are 5 hours from me.

 I will promise you this...When you load your horses, your trailer tongue weight gets... LIGHTER. The first horse is on top of the second axle and the second horse is behind the axles, that's why you have the sway when the horses are on board. You seem to know more about the trailer and what it will do, than the people that built it!!

A young lady on here a while back had a bumper pull steel, three horse trailer with a dressing room, The company that had built it, had the dressing room wall moved back to the area between the first and second horse. This now made it a two horse trailer with a large dressing room. But the deal was that the two horses were pretty much behind the axles which unloaded the tongue and she ended up jack knifing her 2500 Dodge truck and trailer. The mfg. had moved the dr wall back, but hadn't moved the axles back to compensate for the new "center of gravity". This was a trailer that was designed and sold by a trailer company that builds and sells trailers everyday. I can't remember the trailer make, it wasn't a Lakota, it was a cheaper steel plain jane trailer. I've looked for the thread, must have been more than a year ago, wish I could find it. I don't remember what ever became of this girl and her mis-"fortune".

I found literature on this trailer that says I have (this is with dressing room....not living accomodations) the following:

7,560 GVWR and 7,000 GAWR =- Shipping Wt 3,380 and 560 itch Wt.  Now I have to find my model and the weights.

As TOWFO has indicated, your truck is designed to tow a large trailer quite safety.

They have sold you a trailer that is not properly designed, and are attempting to make you pay for band aids to cure their mistakes. A trailer that is correctly designed and towed by an adequate vehicle, should not need additional equipment to go down the road in a straight line.

I currently own several different types of trailers, and over the years have had many more. None of them have needed any add on equipment to tow correctly.

You and your vehicle are not the cause of your problem. Use this knowledge to your advantage in your negotiations.

BOL  Gard

I agree with Retento.  The axles look to be to far forward.  Looking at the pic. of truck & trailer it does have some tongue weight. If you are loosing tongue weight with horses loaded I wonder if WDH will help. It seems they are made to relieve tongue weight. The only way to know 4-sure is to have the tongue weight checked.(with horses & without) Don't forget about water tanks & gear, will change TW. 

Thank you.  What made me sign onto this chat was that I felt just as you just described...bandaids....they do not fix they cover up problems.

I have been trailering for over 30 years (yes I am an old person) ha ha and have never never had this problem.  I have mostly used bumper pulls as we like to keep one available for emergencies if we need to get a horse to a vet and their is not a truck available to pull our gooseneck.

We used to own tractor trailers, milk rigs, dump trucks of all sizes and flat beds to move heavy equipment so believe me between my husband, son, son=in-law we know there is a major problem here.

I will continue to find a solution but yes, I have contacted my attorney and asked him for his opinion. 

I guess no one can imagine the feeling you get after a trailer sways......knowing you could have been hurt, killed and/or involved other innocent people on the roads.  the sad thing is everytime there is a fix, I have to test this and when it happens again I cringe....and cry.

I will do anything if the mfg or dealer can prove to me it is safe as I have enough people who have driven this with their own vehicles and experience the same problem.  Unfortunately I didn't ask others to try it until my new truck didn't work right.  Can you  imagine the expense I have gone through.  Had I known I was going to purchase this FORD I might have considered a gooseneck with living accomodation.

I cannot sell this trailer with this problem.

Teri,

Perhaps the dealer and manufacturer would consider taking their trailer back in a swap for a comparably priced Gn with LQ. You've paid a large amount for an unsuitable trailer that you cannot resell. You need not spend more good money after bad, in an effort to correct their design flaw.

With your lawyer reminding them of the liability issues involved, if ever there were any injury to yourself , family or equipment, and the negative press this thread has caused the manufacturer, they might take the opportunity to make this issue go quietly away.

Hey, "old" people, like us have rights too.

Gard

When I heard from the mfg yesterday I responded with that request.....All I want is a trailer that functions properly.  Would they like t6o sw3ap- even up a Gooseneck L/Q, I think the entire delimma could be solved.

I agree with you...no bandaids....respect my experience.  If in doubt I have asked them to have their own people test this unit or send me to a dealer that they authorize to check this out.

this weekend I went camping....locally....no highway driving.  I put another (new) hitch on the trailer.  My husband wanted to try a 4" drop as my truck tires are 20" and the trailer tires ar 16".  I also checked the pressure in the trailer tires and they were different amounts but are now all at 65 psi the requirmeent of the trailer mfg.

I brought it into work today where they are going to look at everything underneath for me.

I can say I measured the step into and the fenders with a level and my trailer is right on.  I put the level on the hitch and she is a little lower but I need to see if this is the way it is supposed to be.

Now I have to load 2 horses and re-measure for levelness.

I feel all I can do at this time is illiminate all variables.  I have thought of following my trailer and video to record when this happens but then why do I want to ask anyone to risk having an accident.  But it might be my next step.

Julibee.

   You stated that you thought the shipping weight was about 3300Lbs. I hope the dealer or Lakota didn't tell you that. On the Lakota web site it says the that shipping weights vary from 4,445 lbs. to 6,220 lbs with hitch weights of 950 lbs. to 1,405 lbs.  I could see how two horses, stuff and water weight could get you up around 10,000 lbs. or more. I think that the seller has a responsibility to be up front with how these weights can play out in the real world. Seeing they are the only one's that I know of that make a trailer like this ( you have to ask youself why that is) it is even more important.  I also feel that the buyer has responsibilities to know what they are buying by asking question's.  After all is said and done they are your horse' you are pulling down the road. The answer here could be it just was not put together right at the factory, or something you are doing is contrubiting to the problem (I don't know what that could be but it can't be ruled out either).

I don't have the actual #'s but my trailer weight is approx 5,500 lbs as displayed on the trailer and with the horses it is under 8,000 lbs.  Yes I agree the seller should have been more up front with me about this trailer.  It was a new model but I did test it on the highway and had no problems...empty.  I did not shop with my horses and did not feel there would be a problem other than the truck I was driving but have since purchased the appropriate vehicle for this weight.  I did question the placement of the wheels but was assured they were ok.

If I load two horses their front legs (slant load) are over the two wheels, but their hind legs are over the back wheel (front horse) and no wheel (second horse).  It appears my horses are over three wheels only.

I am having the under carriage looked at to rule out structual problems (welds etc) and then to a custom hitch and trailer company in town to ask their opinion of this problem.

I have to rule out all avenues.  I have visited my doing something wrong but I have been trailering with bumper pulls for over 30 years and I think that experience is what kept me from causing a serious accident and my experience tells me to stay off the roads until this is fixed correctly.

Keep in mind the truck I have will tow this weight I just have to find out why and if weight distribution bar and/or anti-sway bars are needed to tow this design of a trailer and if so why they didn't come with the trailer.

I am sorry to tell you, but the single rear wheel 250 and 350 models are not made to pull heavy weights! The weight distribution is a lot different with a gooseneck than bumper pull. Go look at bumper pull rv's. They are designed to be pulled with a sway bar. I do not think that there is much difference in a bumper pull rv and horse trailer. I think the lq in the bp will work. However the optimum vehicle will have to be a dually. Hopefully this might help!

Here's the Super Duty towing numbers...

http://www.fordf150.net/2008/2008-ford-f250-superduty-specifications.php

Conventional weight carrying 5000# Maximum

Conventional weight distributing 12,500# Maximum

So pulling any weight above 5000# from the "bumper hitch", they recomend using a weight distributing devise, and I would guess some type of anti-sway devise also. The two do complement each other.

These numbers have nothing to do with fifthwheel or gooseneck towing, just from the rear "bumper pull hitch".

I agree but my daughter pulled this with a 350 dually and it swayed with her also.

I am on my way to a custom hitch place to visit my options.

You are right.  I just found out that my tongue weight is 1,200 lbs......this much weight has to have weight distributing and anti-sway.  Everything I read said tongue weight was around 600#'s.

I put a level on my truck and then lowered the trailer and it showed how my trailer was sitting down which is an indication of needing weight distributing help.

Still a shame this did not come with this bar with that much weight on the tongue.  Also, why did a reputable dealer sell it to me and let me drive off with just an  anti-sway bar.

I guess my experience towing is why I am here to tell this story.

Now, onto costs and hopefully a solution to this problem and a future of happiness towing again.

I had friends look at a 2 horse Lakota BP LQ at the Equine Affaire last year. When the dealer went to pull it out of the building on Sunday it tipped a forklift up on the front wheels. This was the same forklift they were moving big LQ's around with.

My friends killed the deal right there, because they didn't have the opportunity to test drive it. The dealer working the show was unsure of the tongue weight and wouldn't/couldn't make any promises about the ability of the F250 Superduty to haul it.

Lakota is owned by a former big wig in the RV industry, which probably explains the unique design of these units. But I don't believe he/they have correctly engineered a trailer that is going to be empty behind the axles sometimes and carry a load sometimes.

Hope it works out for you!

Jubilee, those bumper hitch numbers for the DRW 350 dually are 6000# and 15,000# and that's with the tow boss option. The big dually difference come it when you start figuring the weight you're going to sit in the bed, fifthwheel, gooseneck, pallet of cement etc, the weight you are carrying. You'll get it all figured out and all this will be good info for others considering a setup like you got.

By the way....Sharp rig!!

The Chevy 1500 Avalanche with a 5.3 engine is good for 7000#-7200# towing.

Somewhere in between are the numbers for the 2500 series with the 6.0 gasoline engine.

The 2500 is rated at 12,000# with the 8.1 engine. These are numbers using a... Weight distributing hitch and anti-sway devises.

So, a properly equipped Chevrolet Avalanche is capable, to tow between 7000# and 12,000#.

I have a reese hitch on this truck...no bumper.  I have always been afraid to hook right onto a bumper when towing horses.  The truck I have is F250, Diesel, Super Duty 4X4.  when towing I don't even feel the trailer, loaded or unloaded.  The sway is the only time I notice it is behind me.

I have an appointment this week to see a hitch person about heavy duty anti-sway bars (2).  I want to be sure I need a weight dist bar as some design changes have to be made to my tongue because it holds the battery and electricial wires for the rig.

Ive been following this thread and havent really disagreed with any advice youve been given. I applaud you for your calm and educated approach to the situation.  I remember the thread retento mentioned where the girl just went ballistic with no information. I have made some observations, you claim a loaded trailer weight of 8000#. That would require a loaded tongue weight of 800-1200#. The 1200# tongue weight you mentioned, is that loaded with the horses? If it is not, I can almost certainly guarantee both horse are behind the axle pivot point and will unload from that 1200# tongue weight. Whether or not it would go below the required 800#, I dont know. That trailer is setup similar to an rv (specifically a toy hauler), the axles are placed in such a manner as to balance the load to keep the tongue weight in check, forward axle placement is the primary reason for sway. From an engineering stand point I have no doubt the axle are placed properly, but sometimes in the real world things dont pan out like they do on the drawing board.  Weight behind the axles allows for the pendulum effect to get started, allowing sway.  The axle could be placed farther back, but the tongue weight would be excessively high. A typical 2h BP cant "sway", a 3H can much more easily......and the one you have looks like a prime candidate to sway. There is no reason a diesel truck cant handle 1000-1200# of tongue weight (assume the receiver is rated that high in WC mode) without a WDH. However a WDH with sway control is a good insurance policy with a trailer of those weights. I will say that using sway control just to make the trailer "towable" is a recipe for disaster. If it takes sway control to just pull down the road, what is going to happen in an emergency? You need to determine the problem, make the trailer towable without assistance, then use the WDH/sway control as backup.  Personally I wont pull a BP horse trailer that is longer than ~14 feet, beyond that a GN has considerable advatages.  Good luck and be safe.

The manufacturer is sending their rep to install a weight distribution/sway system.  We will then test it for sway and hopefully it will pass.  If not they will help me find a solution.

I want to thank you for your compliement and if it is any help to anyone else I have learned not to get upset and angry because no matter what you have to find a solution.  Problems do tend to find us and without solutions we cannot move on.

Thank you

First I want to say I did not forget to give everyone a follow-up, it just takes time to test a change especially when you work full time.

Anyway, I put a "solid" hitch with a 4" drop on my truck.  My husband felt that the trailer was not level.  We took a level out and he was right.  With the 4" drop, (the solid hitch, which I did not know exsisted was easy to find when my attention was focused on that product), and measured on the bumper and then on the step into the living accomodations and she was level, a little bit high on the front before the hitch but then again it was hard to find a level surface to do it correctly as the battery and wiring is in the way.

We did expect some weight to come off the tongue when we loaded two horses but wanted to be sure (empty 1,200 #'s) it did not go below 800#'s.  I have to say it is not going under 800#'s but I need to have it weighed to confirm that. 

When I load 2 horses the bubble on the legel moves forward indicating that the load it taking weight off the tongue...but she is still in the level area which is what it should do as I don't want more weight than what I have empty.

Now - from these responses from everyone, one thing that stayed with me...fix the problem and then go forward and put devices on to provide "safety".

Today I am dropping the unit off for a reese equalizer with antisway bars.

I will notify Lakota that all dealers should sell this unit with this attachment for our safety.

P.S. the hitch place says (and he has been doing these installations for over 35 years) - his opinion....- this trailer is made correctly but should never be towed without safety bars on it.  So why was I sold a trailer that was not safe to haul two horses in?

I'll let you know the difference when I drive it with the equalizer on it.  I'll also let you know the model # of reese hitch.

Again, I cannot thank all of you for your help - what a group of knowledgable people I have met.

I can tell you that I have the 2 horse HUT version (not the round nose and not the 8 wide) I have had no problems pulling it. It came with a weight distribution hitch and sway bars. I do not use the sway bars unless I am going on long trips on the highway. I have pulled it with a 1500 and a 2500. The only real difference I could tell was the 1500 squated in the rear end, not real bad, but some. Don't see that in the 2500. Both pulled and stopped well. Of course the 2500 pulled easier. Lakota has been great to work with, for any little problems I have had. None have had to do with pulling. For some reason, people love to knock this trailer, despite not ever having owned one or pulled one. One story when they first came out with it where somebody got a lemon seems to have impacted lots of people. You have to dig deep to find the outcome of that story where a lady had one and it swayed with and without horses in it. Mine is a 2011 model.

Check this site, I typically see several for sale, course they might be a bit far away for you!